Category talk:Crusades

Seems like there ought to be a "Crusaders" subcategory that can also be a subcat of Category:People too. Stan 05:25, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Who would go in it? People who actually went on crusade, surely, but what about some of the others, who just lived in the Kingdom of Jerusalem? Adam Bishop 03:44, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You could - the Muslims still call them that. :-) Perhaps "people of the Frankish East"? Stan 05:57, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Maybe "people of the Crusades" or "people involved in the Crusades" or just simply "Crusade people"? Adam Bishop 08:10, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Analogy with subcats of Category:People associated with wars suggests "Crusades people", but there were some lengthy periods of relative peace in there. That's why I thought of "Frankish East" - another term I see we use is "Crusader state", suggesting "people of the Crusader states" or "Crusader states people". Stan 14:58, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What about Muslim people categorized under Crusades? "Crusader allies and enemies," like the similar category for the Romans? Adam Bishop 19:27, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The "allies and enemies" category always seemed a little confused to me, because it includes both individuals and groups of people. Seems like the Muslims should generally have their own nationality cats. The "Crusades" category is still fine as an auxiliary for people who have other "home" or "is-a" categories, for instance Saladin should probably be in a Category:Ayyubids. It occurs that my original comment about "Crusader" is confused, because "crusader" is more like a so-called "business card" category, like explorer or dentist; a French crusader is still French. But someone born in a Crusader state can't really be called "French" or any other European nationality, so they have to be a distinct subcategory of people, while "Crusaders" and "Crusade enemies" can be added to any nationality of person who participated. Stan 07:17, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well, I've been neglecting it for months, but here is a proposal for reorganizing the categories. I hope this shows up coherently:

• Category:Crusades - Crusade, Albigensian Crusade, Children's Crusade, Crusade of 1101, Eighth Crusade, Fifth Crusade, First Crusade, Fourth Crusade, German Crusade, 1096, Ninth Crusade, Northern Crusades, People's Crusade, Second Crusade, Seventh Crusade, Shepherds' Crusade, Sixth Crusade, Third Crusade
  • Crusade people (Christians) – Adhemar of Le Puy, Albéric Clément, Alexius I Comnenus, Alexius III Angelus, Alexius IV Angelus, Alexius V, Alice of Antioch, Alice of Champagne, Amaury de Montfort, Andronicus I Comnenus, Baldwin I of Constantinople, Baldwin II of Constantinople, Baldwin II, Count of Hainaut, Baldwin of Ibelin, Balian of Ibelin, Barisan of Ibelin, Barons di Baccari, Bernard of Clairvaux, Boniface of Montferrat, Comnenus, Conrad III of Germany, Enrico Dandolo, Edward I of England, Eleanor of Aquitaine, Emich of Leiningen, Enguerrand VII de Coucy, Eustace III of Boulogne, Frederick I of Austria (Babenberg), Frederick I, Holy Roman Emperor, Gaston IV of Béarn, Henry of Flanders, Hodierna of Tripoli, Hugh II of Le Puiset, Hugh III, Duke of Burgundy, Hugh VI of Lusignan, Hugh of Brienne, Hugh of Ibelin, Hugh of Vermandois, Hugues II of St. Pol, Humphrey II of Toron, Humphrey IV of Toron, Ioveta of Bethany, Isaac II Angelus, John II Comnenus, John of Ibelin, John of Ibelin (jurist), John of Ibelin, the Old Lord of Beirut, Kaloyan, Jean Le Maingre, Latin Patriarch of Antioch, Leopold V of Austria (Babenberg), Leopold VI of Austria, Louis IX of France, Louis VII of France, Lusignan, Manuel I Comnenus, Maria of Antioch, Miles of Plancy, Monarchs of the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, Peter Bartholomew, Peter of Courtenay, Peter the Hermit, Philip II of France, Philip of Milly, Plaisance of Antioch, Pope Honorius III, Pope Innocent III, Pope Urban II, Raymond VI of Toulouse, Raymond VII of Toulouse, Richard I of England, Robert Curthose, Robert II of Flanders, Robert of Courtenay, Roger of Salerno, Stephanie of Milly, Stephen, Count of Blois, Sybilla of Lusignan, Tancred, Prince of Galilee, Taticius, Theobald III of Champagne, Thoros of Edessa, Turcopole, Vassallo-Paleologo, Walter IV of Brienne, Walter the Penniless, William II Longespee, William II Villehardouin, William III of Montferrat, William IX of Aquitaine, William of Montferrat, William-Jordan, Yolanda of Flanders
    • Latin Patriarchs of Jerusalem – Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem, Arnulf of Chocques, Albert Avogadro, Dagobert of Pisa, Patriarch Heraclius of Jerusalem, Raoul of Merencourt, Jacques de Vitry
  • Crusade people (Muslims) - Al-Adil I, Al-Afdal Shahanshah, Al-Kamil, Al-Mustazhir, As-Salih Ayyub, Baibars, Burid Dynasty, Danishmends, Ilghazi, Kerbogha, Khalil, Kilij Arslan I, Kilij Arslan II, Nur ad-Din, Ortoqid, Qalawun, Saladin, Seljuk Turks, Shirkuh, Zengi, Zengid dynasty
  • Crusade places - Aigues-Mortes, Akko, Antioch, Arsuf, Ashkelon, Banias, Bethany (Israel), Caesarea Palaestina, Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Dorylaeum, Edessa, Mesopotamia, Holy Land, Le Puiset, Oultrejordain, Outremer, Safita, Tiberias, Tower of David, Tripoli, Lebanon, Tyre
  • Crusader states – Crusader states
    • County of Edessa – County of Edessa
      • Counts of Edessa - Baldwin I of Jerusalem, Baldwin II of Jerusalem, Joscelin I of Edessa, Joscelin II of Edessa, Joscelin III of Edessa
    • County of Tripoli – County of Tripoli
      • Counts of Tripoli - Alphonse I of Toulouse, Bertrand of Toulouse, Bohemund IV of Antioch, Bohemund V of Antioch, Bohemund VI of Antioch, Bohemund VII of Tripoli, Lucia of Tripoli, Pons of Tripoli, Raymond II of Tripoli, Raymond III of Tripoli, Raymond IV of Toulouse
    • Duchy of Athens – Duchy of Athens
    • Duchy of the Archipelago – Duchy of the Archipelago
    • Kingdom of Cyprus – Kingdom of Cyprus,
      • Kings of Cyprus - Amalric II of Jerusalem, Catherine Cornaro, Charlotte of Cyprus, Guy of Lusignan, Henry I of Cyprus, Henry II of Jerusalem, Hugh I of Cyprus, Hugh II of Cyprus, Hugh III of Cyprus, Hugh IV of Cyprus, James I of Cyprus, James II of Cyprus, James III of Cyprus, Janus of Cyprus, John II of Cyprus, John II of Jerusalem
    • Kingdom of Jerusalem – Assizes of Jerusalem, Kingdom of Jerusalem, Haute Cour of Jerusalem, Melisende Psalter, Officers of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, Vassals of the Kingdom of Jerusalem
      • Kings of Jerusalem – Kings of Jerusalem, Kings of Jerusalem family tree, Amalric I of Jerusalem, Amalric II of Jerusalem, Baldwin I of Jerusalem, Baldwin II of Jerusalem, Baldwin III of Jerusalem, Baldwin IV of Jerusalem, Baldwin V of Jerusalem, Conrad IV of Germany, Conrad of Montferrat, Conradin, Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor, Fulk of Jerusalem, Godfrey of Bouillon, Guy of Lusignan, Henry II of Champagne, Henry II of Jerusalem, Hugh III of Cyprus, John II of Jerusalem, John of Brienne
      • Queens of Jerusalem - Adelaide del Vasto, Agnes of Courtenay, Arda of Armenia, Maria Comnena, Morphia of Melitene, Theodora Comnena, Isabella of Jerusalem, Maria of Montferrat, Melisende of Jerusalem, Sibylla of Jerusalem, Yolande of Jerusalem
    • Kingdom of Thessalonica - Kingdom of Thessalonica
    • Latin Empire – Latin Empire
    • Principality of Achaea - Principality of Achaea
    • Principality of Antioch - Principality of Antioch, Treaty of Devol
      • Princes of Antioch - Bohemund I of Antioch, Bohemund II of Antioch, Bohemund III of Antioch, Bohemund IV of Antioch, Bohemund V of Antioch, Bohemund VI of Antioch, Constance of Antioch, Raymond of Antioch, Raymond-Roupen of Antioch, Raynald of Chatillon
  • Military orders - Military order, Knights of St Lazarus, Knights of St Thomas, Knights of the Holy Sepulchre, Order of Calatrava, Order of Christ, Order of Montjoie, Order of Our Lady of Bethlehem, Order of San Jorge de Alfama, Order of Santiago
    • Knights Hospitaller – Knights Hospitaller, Hughes de Payens, Raymond du Puy de Provence, Roger de Moulins
    • Knights Templar – Knights Templar, André de Montbard, Armand de Périgord, Bernard de Tremelay, Bertrand de Blanchefort, Convento de Cristo, Everard des Barres, Gerard de Ridefort, Gilbert Horal, Knights Templar Seal, List of Knights Templar, Gualdim Pais, Robert de Craon, Templars in England
    • Teutonic Knights – Teutonic Knights, Heinrich I Walpot von Bassenheim, Hermann of Salza, Otto von Kerpen, Konrad I of Thuringia, Gerhard von Malberg, Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights, Ordensburg, Second Treaty of Thorn, Thirteen Years' War, Heinrich II von Tunna
  • Crusade historians - Albert of Aix, Ambrose the poet, Chanson d'Antioche, Dei gesta per Francos, Ekkehard of Aura, Eliezer ben Nathan, Fulcher of Chartres, Geoffrey of Villehardouin, Gesta Francorum, Giraldus Cambrensis, Guibert of Nogent, Jean de Joinville, Kitab al-I'tibar, Raymond of Aguilers, Ali ibn Tahir al-Sulami, The Crusade and Death of Richard I, Usamah ibn Munqidh, Walter the Chancellor, William of Tyre
  • Battles of the Crusades - Battle of Acre, Battle of Adrianople (1205), Battle of Ager Sanguinis, Siege of Antioch, Battle of Arsuf, Battle of Ascalon, Battle of Azaz, Battle of Cresson, Siege of Damascus, Battle of Dorylaeum, Siege of Edessa, Battle of Harran, Battle of Hattin, Battle of Inab, Siege of Jerusalem (1099), Battle of La Forbie, Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa, Siege of Lisbon, Battle of Montgisard, Siege of Nicaea, Battle of Nicopolis, Battle of Pelagonia
  • Crusader castles - Belvoir Castle (Israel), Ibelin, Kantara Castle, Kerak, Kolossi Castle, Krak des Chevaliers, Latrun, Margat, Montreal (Crusader castle), Nimrod Fortress, Toron, Tzippori

It's not perfect...I don't know where to put Council of Clermont, Council of Piacenza, Holy Lance, Quantum praedecessores, or Saladin tithe. Should the individual crusades be sub-categorized when necessary? And should we put people and things specific to one of the crusades in that sub-category? Also, should people be organized by Crusader state when applicable? I suppose we could have a "Latin Emperors" category just like we have for the Palestinian/Syrian states. And should people like Hodierna go into the County of Tripoli category, for example?

Any input is appreciated! Adam Bishop 21:44, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wow, pretty spiffy. Saying "Crusade people (Franks)" seems more flavorful, but probably less accurate. Some articles will be hard to subcategorize, just leave them at the top. (After all, if it's not obvious to you, it won't be obvious to anybody else as to which subcategory to look in.) Not clear that we have enough material for subcats for each crusade - I tend to favor larger categories and not so many cats on each article, but others avidly create 1-article "categories". As for Crusader state people subcats, I wouldn't create one unless I had at least ten non-rulers to seed it with, readers will have no trouble finding a "princes of Antioch" subcat listed under the more generic "Crusade people (Christians)" cat. No Jews involved with the Crusades at all? Stan 17:58, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks! I'd prefer just to stick everything into one "Crusades" category, but I guess the idea is to break them up. There's not many Jews involved...Soloman bar Samson, Eliezer ben Nathan, and perhaps Benjamin of Tudela come to mind, but no one else that we have articles for, anyway. Adam Bishop 05:08, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the Crusader state subcats should probably be limited. We already have a category for Dukes of Athens, and adding one for Princes of Achaea, Latin Emperors, and maybe Dukes of the Archipelago would make sense. (Barons of Baccari should also get dropped, they're post-Crusade.) It would be kinda neat to make the distinction between Crusaders from overseas and "native" Crusaders, but it wasn't always a clear one, and the only terms I can remember are insulting, anyway ("Poitevins" and "Poulains"). Peter I and II of Cyprus should also go in (articles recently created). Hodierna seems to have spent most of her career in Tripoli, so filing her under "County of Tripoli" (if we create that category) seems reasonable. (We could create separate categories for regents of the various states, but they might be kinda small.) Subcategorizing by crusade is OK, I suppose, but there'll be people who fit into multiple crusades (St. Louis), and probably some denizens of Outremer who are just generic Crusaders. Choess 06:40, 2005 Jun 24 (UTC)

• I'm going to start moving the articles into the suggested categories. Once we have the basic categorization done, we can hammer out the details. --Hemlock Martinis 05:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)