Category talk:Filipino musical groups
Latest comment: 8 years ago by RioHondo in topic Filipino, not Philippine
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Filipino, not Philippine
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Moved from WP:CFDS- Category:Philippine musical groups to Category:Filipino musical groups – C2C per Category:Filipino musicians.RioHondo (talk) 11:33, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
- Category:Philippine musical groups by genre to Category:Filipino musical groups by genre
- Category:Philippine hip hop groups to Category:Filipino hip hop groups
- Category:Philippine jazz ensembles to Category:Filipino jazz ensembles
- Category:Philippine pop music groups to Category:Filipino pop music groups
- Category:Philippine reggae musical groups to Category:Filipino reggae musical groups
- Category:Philippine rhythm and blues musical groups to Category:Filipino rhythm and blues musical groups
- Category:Philippine rock music groups to Category:Filipino rock music groups
- Category:Philippine choirs to Category:Filipino choirs
- Category:Philippine girl groups to Category:Filipino girl groups
- Category:Philippine orchestras to Category:Filipino orchestras
OpposeComment. "Filipino" is used for persons; "Philippine" is used for non-persons. Musical groups aren't really persons; they are separate entities composed of them. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:27, 20 June 2016 (UTC)- See Musical ensemble where musical group redirects to. "A musical ensemble, also known as a music group, is a group of people who perform instrumental and/or vocal music, with the ensemble typically known by a distinct name." A band (rock and pop) is a small musical ensemble. An orchestra is an instrumental ensemble. And a choir is a musical ensemble of singers. These groups of people performers are sorted by nationality. Their nationality is Filipino not Philippine. See also Category:Filipino American musical groups, Category:Filipino boy bands.--RioHondo (talk) 03:56, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Add: There is nowhere in the musical ensemble article that says they are entities. If by entity, you mean like organizations, there is no Category:Organizations by nationality only Category:Organizations by country. Whereas musical groups there is no Category:Musical groups by country only Category:Musical groups by nationality.--RioHondo (talk) 04:04, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- I guess it may depend on whether one regards the musical group as a singular independent entity or a plural composite entity. If singular, the group is a "thing" that is separate from the individuals within it and has an independent existence. If plural, it is just a composite of the people in it. It's similar to the usage disputes with respect to sports teams: are they a singular entities independent of the players, or is it a plural composite? My own usage is that I would refer to a musical group in the singular, not in the plural (I would say, "Green Day is an American band", not "Green Day are an American band"). But I know other people who would use the plural. To some extent it is an ENGVAR issue, with American English generally tending to treat them as singulars, and UK English generally tending to treat them as plurals. In any case, because the names were changed via a full discussion here, we should have a full discussion to get a consensus to change them back. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:10, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Not really sure what you're driving at here but group is supposed to be singular: A group, so you use is. But with regards to using Filipino or Philippine, may i refer you to WP:MOSPHIL. Musicians, groups of musicians are people not inanimate objects like organizations or entities. Thats why they fall under Category:Filipino music people. And thats why its a candidate under C2C.--RioHondo (talk) 04:28, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Add: I think i know what you mean now, While group is taken as singular, as in Green Day is an American band. You refer to the band as "They" not "it", e.g, Green Day is American. "They are popular here". Not "It is popular here", to refer to them, the group of musicians. This is unlike organizations or entities, say Green Party. You refer to the party as It not they, as in Green Party is a political party. It was founded by Mr. Green, not they were founded.--RioHondo (talk) 04:37, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- As I mentioned, I think usage differs depending on place for a lot of these. I would say, "it is popular here" in referring to a band, just as I would say that the band "is American". But I know others who would say both the other way, and still others who would mix plural and singular usages, as you are suggesting is appropriate. If an admin thinks that this is sufficiently within C2C, I'm OK for it to proceed speedily. A full discussion could be appropriate given the previous discussion, but I'm thinking that it might not be worth it, so I've struck my "oppose". Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:51, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Yup, i think it has more to do with identity. An organization or entity has an identity independent of people within it, so you refer to an organization as an object, It. Whereas an ensemble or music group's identity is dependent on the members that make up the group, so you refer to bands as people, They. And again, the category tree for these Musical groups in the Philippines is overwhelmingly using Filipino not Philippine so the C2C criteria does apply here.--RioHondo (talk) 13:08, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- But what if the musical group is legally incorporated, like the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is? :) Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:28, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Then it is also a candidate for Category:Music organizations by country, apart from Category:Musical groups by nationality. And just follow the convention used for that category tree.--RioHondo (talk) 02:29, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- But in each of the subcategories of Category:Music organizations by country, the relevant musical group category is a subcategory ... I'm not sure that the distinction has been thought through as clearly as you are suggesting. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:50, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- If that's the case then I am open to having it under Category:Musical groups based in the Philippines. It's either that or Category:Filipino musical groups. It has to follow at least one of its parent cats. Right now it does not. This is purely technical, no worries.--RioHondo (talk) 03:00, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- But in each of the subcategories of Category:Music organizations by country, the relevant musical group category is a subcategory ... I'm not sure that the distinction has been thought through as clearly as you are suggesting. Good Ol’factory (talk) 02:50, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- Then it is also a candidate for Category:Music organizations by country, apart from Category:Musical groups by nationality. And just follow the convention used for that category tree.--RioHondo (talk) 02:29, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- But what if the musical group is legally incorporated, like the Mormon Tabernacle Choir is? :) Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:28, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Yup, i think it has more to do with identity. An organization or entity has an identity independent of people within it, so you refer to an organization as an object, It. Whereas an ensemble or music group's identity is dependent on the members that make up the group, so you refer to bands as people, They. And again, the category tree for these Musical groups in the Philippines is overwhelmingly using Filipino not Philippine so the C2C criteria does apply here.--RioHondo (talk) 13:08, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- As I mentioned, I think usage differs depending on place for a lot of these. I would say, "it is popular here" in referring to a band, just as I would say that the band "is American". But I know others who would say both the other way, and still others who would mix plural and singular usages, as you are suggesting is appropriate. If an admin thinks that this is sufficiently within C2C, I'm OK for it to proceed speedily. A full discussion could be appropriate given the previous discussion, but I'm thinking that it might not be worth it, so I've struck my "oppose". Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:51, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- I guess it may depend on whether one regards the musical group as a singular independent entity or a plural composite entity. If singular, the group is a "thing" that is separate from the individuals within it and has an independent existence. If plural, it is just a composite of the people in it. It's similar to the usage disputes with respect to sports teams: are they a singular entities independent of the players, or is it a plural composite? My own usage is that I would refer to a musical group in the singular, not in the plural (I would say, "Green Day is an American band", not "Green Day are an American band"). But I know other people who would use the plural. To some extent it is an ENGVAR issue, with American English generally tending to treat them as singulars, and UK English generally tending to treat them as plurals. In any case, because the names were changed via a full discussion here, we should have a full discussion to get a consensus to change them back. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:10, 20 June 2016 (UTC)
- Category:Philippine musical groups by genre to Category:Filipino musical groups by genre
- I am going to process this, but the above discussion may be worth keeping on the top category talk page. – Fayenatic London 13:35, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- For the record, I noticed afterwards that this reverses an old CFD: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_January_25#Filipino_to_Philippine. – Fayenatic London 15:54, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
- Yup, thanks for saving the discussion here for future reference. All those other categories nominated in the old CFD have been on point, and they clearly followed their category trees in line with WP:MOSPHIL. It can get very tricky i know, but it always helps to check on the convention for every category to arrive at the appropriate adjective. And if the category is on the people, it's always safer to use Filipino. --RioHondo (talk) 02:44, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
- For the record, I noticed afterwards that this reverses an old CFD: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_January_25#Filipino_to_Philippine. – Fayenatic London 15:54, 21 June 2016 (UTC)