Draft talk:Edward Leung Yiu-ming

Notability

Moved from User talk:333-blue

 – --George Ho (talk) 08:11, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't see how notability guidelines helps improve Wikipedia. Sure this person doesn't meet the guidelines' criteria, but they are not definite or absolute. What about WP:verification or WP:BLP? Do they help much? Also, I created this to distinguish the other Edward Leung. --George Ho (talk) 17:30, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

How "in-depth"? I checked sources from Google Books, and they say the same thing about his accomplishments. Nothing else about his private life or interviews or anything else. --George Ho (talk) 19:05, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Try to add some sources from news recently. 333-blue 00:14, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I "learned" from SwisterTwister. 333-blue 00:15, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Added a news article in Chinese, saying that he also served as a director of a television series. --This is George Ho actually (Talk) 02:54, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

How many more sources must I add? Which ones? --George Ho (talk) 14:22, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

1 is not enough, more will be better. 333-blue 23:59, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

There's already six sources there, so forget about counting them or that adding "one more" will be a magic fix. Here's the actual problem George Ho. The sources need to show the notability of the person. At this current time none of the numbered footnotes demonstrate notability. What do they teach us about the guy?

1. Bettinson - He was one of 4 scriptwriters on a film. (I can't access p247 though. Is he mentioned in that page?)
2. Charles (p.25) - He was one of two writers on a film.
3. Charles (p.52) - I can't access this page
4. Morton - He was one of 6 writers on a film
5. Charles (p.300) - He was one of 6 writers on a film
6. Charles (p.176) - He was one of 3 writers on a film
7. Charles (p.201) - He was one of 2 writers on a film
8. Charles (p.156) - He was one of 3 writers on a film
9. Charles (p.366) - He is the sole credited writer on this film. Does the source discuss his writing? Not very favourably, describing the first half of the film as a "washout", while the second half does not capitalize on its ambitions.
10. Golden Horse - Nominated for an award but didn't win.
11. Sina.com - He directed a television show, but it is a passing mention because the article is about someone else.

Each and every one of these 11 references from 6 different sources (excluding two pages I can't access) merely give a passing mention of him as a scriptwriter, without giving any discussion about his work, or him as a person. Please see the general notability guideline. The first step of that is:

"Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content.

Currently this article fails the first sentence because there is no detailed discussion of the subject. To fix it, you need to find sources which discuss in detail his work and/or him as a person. More sources saying "he is a scriptwriter" will not help. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 01:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

What about WP:NOTEWORTHY, WP:NRV and WP:ARTN? --George Ho (talk) 17:22, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

George Ho, sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner. Here is an explanation addressing each of the three links you've mentioned:

1. WP:NOTEWORTHY is about content within an article. The best way to explain is by giving you an example. Akihiro Ota is a Japanese politician who was the nation's transport minister this time last year. His political career has received significant coverage over many years, because he was also the president of one of the ruling parties a few years ago. So his notability is well-established and he has an article. Within the "early life" section of his article, it mentions that he was the captain of his university's sumo club. This piece of information is not the subject of significant coverage - the source is Ota's own website. So if "captain of a college sumo club" was his only claim of notability, he would fail WP:GNG. This is where WP:NOTEWORTHY is applicable - that fact about his college sumo does not need to satisfy the notability guidelines, because it is one piece of information within an article about a notable person.
   By comparison, Yiu-ming does not have anything to establish the required significant coverage. If he was notable for being a top politican, then his film-writing career could also be included in his biography per WP:NOTEWORTHY. But currently that first hurdle of notability has not been cleared.
2. WP:NRV - Yes, notability requires verifiable evidence, just as that link says. My point is that so far, the article contains no verifiable evidence of notability.
3. WP:ARTN - The last sentence could be applicable here.
   If the source material exists, even very poor writing and referencing within a Wikipedia article will not decrease the subject's notability.
   If there are Chinese sources which establishes Yiu-ming's notability within the film industry in his country, then we can say he is notable even if they are not used in the article. I can't read Chinese, so I can't help you find those sources. If the sources do exist you need to present a list of them, or better still, use them to expand the article.

Please let me know if any of that needs further explanation. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 06:14, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

What about this one and that? And what about WP:SUSTAINED? --George Ho (talk) 09:06, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

The google translation of the Chinese links are very poor and the excerpts are quite short, so I can't give a fair assessment. What does the material say? If they are more one-sentence mentions of him writing a film, I don't think they will help. I do not think WP:SUSTAINED helps in this situation either. The subject is not really receiving coverage, they are merely passing mentions. So far we have no biographical information about him, you know, the basic stuff like where he was born, how old he is. In this day and age, if that sort of information is not provided in sources, then it is a fair indication that a person is not notable. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 00:01, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Haven't you heard of WP:BLPPRIVACY? That person would like to keep his basic profile very low if reliable sources do not mention his age and birth. What about WP:ANYBIO? --George Ho (talk) 06:20, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm not saying we must include his age. What I mean is that none of the sources provided so far have any information about him. If we remove the details of what films and shows he has worked on, this would be a two-sentence biography "Edward Leung Yiu-ming is a film screenwriter. He and his co-writers received the Golden Horse Award nomination in 1990 for Best Featured Film Adapted Screenplay for The Swordsman." That is not enough to satisfy the requirements of a biography of a notable person. Which part of WP:ANYBIO are you referring to? There is no evidence of receiving multiple award nominations. Similarly, there is no evidence of a "widely-recognized contribution" to his field.

By the way, is his surname Leung? I believe it is, but please correct me if I am wrong. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 06:47, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

P.S. Would you like to move this discussion to either the article's talk page or your talk page George? AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 07:15, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

A draft talk page would do, but what about the whole thread? Shall we move it there or leave it here? --George Ho (talk) 07:33, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I think we should copy it over to keep the thread intact. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 07:49, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

@Athomeinkobe and 333: What about WP:BIO#Creative professionals? Does he meet either of criteria? --George Ho (talk) 05:22, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

The article in the current form does not suggest he does George Ho. Is there any that you think he may come under? AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 07:01, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Restart #1

AtHomeIn神戸 and 333-blue, I have been thinking. What about WP:GUIDES? It says that we can treat guidelines with common sense and make exceptions to the guidelines, like "WP:notability" and "WP:notability (people)". George Ho (talk) 11:29, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner George Ho. My common sense says he has not received any notable coverage and therefore fails the most basic guideline of WP:GNG. We can only bend the rules so far. Have you got any other sources that actually talk about the subject? AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 00:28, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

Hey, Athomeinkobe. I added more sources; I added one more film and a little bit of detail about his casting an actress (though incomplete). George Ho (talk) 07:13, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

George, we need sources of people talking about him; not him talking about others. I see you have submitted it for review again. I will wait to let someone else perform a review, but I still don't see how the additions show his notability. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 05:27, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Restart #2

@Primefac: I see that the "Notability" criteria are preventing this page from entering the mainspace. Readers would not see the writer's contributions to the HK film industry. I thought about RM at first. However, it failed approval four or five times. I figure I would never have a consensus saying yes to mainspace. Thoughts? George Ho (talk) 03:43, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

George Ho, while I won't say that Leung will never get an article on Wikipedia, the draft as it currently stands fails the notability (and therefore the most important) criteria for Wikipedia. If you can find reliable sources that talk about him in detail, then it will be a different situation. Primefac (talk) 14:55, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

@Primefac: I tried finding sources. I found Chinese sources, but sometimes either they say the same thing or something I could not understand. Some articles refer to the different Liang Yaoming, a CEO. One book refers to a translator. George Ho (talk) 18:39, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

Restart #3

Pinging Primefac, 333-blue, and Athomeinkobe for their opinions on the additions of those sources. Do they verify the notability of this person? --George Ho (talk) 11:10, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

George, I can't access the first source and the second is in Chinese. Do either of them give any information about the person beyond the fact that he wrote the show? At the risk of repeating myself, we need biographical information, not a padded resume. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 05:30, 22 July 2017 (UTC)