Talk:Trade negotiation between the UK and the EU

Already covered?

Why do you say:

• "Undue weight to a specific topic that would be relatively minor within the scope of this proposed article."
• "Further, this topic is already well covered by existing Brexit articles."

It looks like fisheries issue is a key point for both the EU and Johnson.

Also, which exact article cover both topics: fisheries and Trade deal negotiation between the UK and EU?

Too much weight on the "Fisheries issue"

What's about creating a dedicated article: "Fisheries issues" or "Brexit fisheries issues"?

In fact, fisheries only count for 2871 bytes out of 15081, that's only 18% of the article.

I have trimmed the fisheries part with unimportant things. Fisheries are a big part of the negotiations, as EU have linked them to trade talks, but that one part of the article is better that the others should not harm the article. There is no other articles covering the ongoing negotiations, Brexit negotiations ends in October 2019. ― Hebsen (talk) 00:16, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Not trimmed enough for the lead. It will be a flashpoint yes because it has totemic importance in the UK but its economic significance is trivial, <0.5% of trade. The material I deleted belongs in the body. John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:08, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Also remember that, per wp:LEAD, the lead should only be a summary of the body. So a new sentence needs adding to the lead that actually summarises the fisheries issue. The sentence that I deleted didn't do that. John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:33, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

"The thorny issue of fishing rights has been allocated the most time" EU has no legal duty to give UK trade privileges, document says, The Guardian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.209.92 (talk) 17:29, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Grammar, language

For such a high profile topic, this article should have had a lot more copyediting before coming out of draft space. I don't have time to do it now. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:22, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Negotiations in April 2020

Some citations in a holding pattern to be used (or not) at the end of April when the month can be summarised

• Weizhen Tan (7 April 2020). "Brexit trade deal gets tougher as coronavirus strikes officials on both sides". CNBC. Retrieved 15 April 2020. "In all circumstances it's very difficult to imagine how some sort of large scale trade deal between the U.K. and the EU gets done by the end of the year," said Amanda Sloat, a senior fellow at Brookings Institution.
• Daniel Boffey (8 April 2020). "Brexit: UK plan to agree trade deal by December is fantasy, says EU. Leaked letter reveals scale of bloc's inability to function during coronavirus outbreak". The Guardian. Retrieved 15 April 2020.
• Jim Brunsden (14 April 2020). "Brexit negotiators try to pick up pieces as talks resume". Financial Times. Retrieved 15 April 2020. The goal of the call will be to fix dates for rounds of virtual negotiations on the future partnership. Videoconference planned for 15/4/20.
• "Joint statement by UK and EU negotiators following the videoconference on 15 April 2020" (Press release). Government of the United Kingdom. 15 April 2020. Retrieved 19 April 2020.
• Faisal Islam (16 April 2020). "IMF head warns on Brexit trade deal failure". BBC news. Retrieved 19 April 2020. The IMF has suggested [that] the UK and the EU should not "add to uncertainty" from coronavirus by refusing to extend the period to negotiate a post-Brexit trade deal.
• William Gritten (Apr 16, 2020). "Brexit: the state of affairs as negotiations restart: Virtual negotiations will begin next week, but time is running out to agree a deal". The Week. Retrieved 19 April 2020. On the table are the crucial issues of the future trade relationship, including security policy, trade rules and the contentious issue of fishing rights. Westminster has yet to produce any proposals on the politically charged issue of access for EU boats to UK waters - and it could yet prove an intractable issue.
• Alain Tolhurst (16 April 2020). "Downing Street rules out extension to Brexit transition period - even if Brussels asks for it". Politics Home. Retrieved 19 April 2020. Despite the disruption to the negotiations caused by the coronavirus outbreak, Number 10 has repeatedly said the 12-month implementation period would remain in place.

As we prepare for the next Rounds of negotiations, I want to reiterate the Government's position on the transition period created following our withdrawal from the EU. Transition ends on 31 December this year. We will not ask to extend it. If the EU asks we will say no. Extending would simply prolong negotiations, create even more uncertainty, leave us liable to pay more to the EU in future, and keep us bound by evolving EU laws at a time when we need to control our own affairs. In short, it is not in the UK's interest to extend.

— David Frost

• Philip Oltermann; Daniel Boffey (23 April 2020). "UK making 'impossible demands' over Europol database in EU talks". Retrieved 23 April 2020. As talks between the two sides resumed via video calls this week, Britain's negotiators not only refused to extend the transition period because of the Covid-19 pandemic, but also stated the UK side's eagerness to continue taking part in EU-wide data-sharing arrangements and even expanding their reach.
• Katya Adler (24 April 2020). "Brexit: Disappointing progress in trade talks, says Michel Barnier". BBC News. Retrieved 24 April 2020. Fishing, competition rules, the form of an eventual deal and what kind of mechanism would be used for disputes between the two sides. Those have been the screaming areas of disagreement between EU and UK negotiators from the start. And if they can't be resolved, the EU insists there will be no trade deal at all.
• Philip Oltermann; Daniel Boffey (24 April 2020). "Britain running down the clock in Brexit talks, says Michel Barnier. EU negotiator expresses frustrations at UK refusal to discuss key issues of transition". Retrieved 24 April 2020. A UK spokesman [...] openly questioned the value of the deal being offered by Brussels when compared with a no-deal outcome.
• Daniel Boffey (26 April 2020). "Post-Brexit trade talks with EU on course to fail, Johnson warned. Prime minister expected to press EU leaders to dedicate attention to faltering negotiations". The Guardian.

References

Negotiations in May

Another round of citation collection, to use or not when writing the section at the end of the month: John Maynard Friedman (talk) 07:52, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

• Jennifer Rankin (2 May 2020). "UK seeks access to EU health cooperation in light of coronavirus. Government now wants close links with early warning system despite Brexit, source says". The Guardian. Retrieved 2 May 2020.
• Jim Brunsden (May 6, 2020). "Brussels and Britain clash over climate conditions in trade deal. EU push to incorporate Paris agreement adds to tension over post-Brexit relationship". Financial Times. Retrieved May 6, 2020.
• Jim Brunsden; Sam Fleming (10 May 2020). "Brussels says Britain must engage in full scope of post-Brexit talks. UK will be pushed to take part in detailed discussion on fishing waters and other EU priorities". Financial Times. Retrieved 10 May 2020. Brussels will push Britain to engage in detailed talks on access to UK fishing waters and other top EU priorities this week, warning that the two sides' negotiations on a future relationship will stall unless work on all key topics advances in parallel.
• Jennifer Rankin (13 May 2020). "UK-EU trade deal with tariffs impossible in six months, say diplomats. EU officials dismiss Michael Gove's suggestion deal could be done without longer transition". The Guardian. Retrieved 13 May 2020. Giving evidence to the House of Lords EU committee last week, Gove said the government could "modify our ask" by giving up on a "zero-tariff, zero-quota" trade deal in order to keep the UK free from a duty to adhere to European standards on workers' rights, environmental protection and state aid.

Late May

• Jennifer Rankin (26 May 2020). "Brexit talks 'risk stalemate' if no progress on key issues. EU sources say union needs to see movement from Britain in terms of fair competition". The Guardian. Retrieved 27 May 2020. Adding to pressure on Barnier not to concede on fishing rights, on Monday night the European parliament's fisheries committee threatened to veto any deal with the UK that did not include a "balanced" agreement on fish quotas, allowing EU fleets continue access to British waters."No fisheries agreement means no post-Brexit agreement," said François-Xavier Bellamy, the French centre-right MEP – and member of Barnier's Les Républicains party – who drew up a report that was adopted with near unanimity by the committee.

Translation to other languages?

This article only exists in English! It should also be translated in the languages of the European Union. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.209.92 (talk) 17:31, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it should. If you have at least B2 proficiency in English and any other language(s), please go ahead and native speakers will improve it. We are all volunteers here. Right now, Google Translate is not good enough to do it automatically.

Another problem is that all the citations are .uk, or .ie news sources. The same news was reported in the news media in most countries (but obviously not to the same detail) but you will have to hunt them down. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:35, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

New section: Draft legal and treaty texts

88.136.214.5 has added a new section called "Draft legal and treaty texts", which gives the 'opening bids' by each side. This is useful and should stay. But the accompanying subsection (originally another section), called "Official drafts", seems to present exactly the same information again in a different, more intrusive, form. Is there a good reason to keep that subsection? What does it add to the (new) preceding section?--John Maynard Friedman (talk) 16:28, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

I believe that I have resolved the issue by putting the documents into ==External links== per WP:MOS. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:08, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

September 2020 section, FT report 7 Sept and associated reaction

The new material under September 2020 is well supported by citation but I have to question whether it is appropriate to include in the article straight away, without time to see it in a wider perspective. It certainly looks like the FT was given a deliberate leak but subsequent ministerial statements have tried to play down its significance. The FT reported what it understood would be in the United Kingdom’s Internal Market Bill – but the bill is due to be published tomorrow so it seems to me that we should report what the bill actually says rather than what it might say. WP:NOTNEWS and WP:CRYSTAL. We can also report dispassionate commentary. Delete? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:07, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

I added it. I agree about WP:NOTNEWS, but I think it is significant to include, given that it attracted reactions from von der Leyen. Sure, it needs adjustments when the bill is published and more data is available; feel free to make those adjustments. ― Hebsen (talk) 11:56, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, thinking about it a bit more, the FT article might have been non-notable click bait but the reaction to it was certainly notable. So for that reason it should stay. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:47, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

FT, 13 September

Just jotting this link here as it may become useful to cite later:

• Alan Beattie; Jim Pickard; Peter Foster (13 September 2020). "Japan trade deal commits UK to stricter state aid curbs than in EU talks. Contrasting positions could undermine negotiating stance with Brussels". Financial Times. Retrieved 14 September 2020.

Guardian, 17 September

Likewise this one:

If the UK does not comply with the exit agreement, there will no longer be a basis for a free trade agreement between the EU and the UK. The UK government must correct this before we continue to negotiate our political and economic relations.

— Valdis Dombrovskis (European Commission’s vice-president for the economy

References

No deal Brexit or Australia like deal

What would occur in case no trade deal is agreed at the defined date?

• would it be a no deal Brexit?
• would this no deal be a kind of Australia like deal?
• would the UK remain in the EEA?

This issue does not seams adressed in the article?. Might be an additional section could address such a topic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.136.216.31 (talk) 19:10, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments. First, Wikipedia only reports what reliable sources say, we try not to contribute our own research or opinions. We also do not speculate, especially about the future. So sorry, we can't have the section you suggest.

• No, it wouldn't be a no-deal Brexit because Brexit has already happened and there was a withdrawal deal. What is confusing is that the UK media are reusing the term for no-trade-deal, perhaps because most of the problems identified then are still around, but a little bit more preparations have been made.
• The PM is using the term "Australia deal", which is being economical with the truth. Australia is half a world away and its trade with the EU is tiny, it just sounds sunshine, sweetness and light. UK trade with the European Economic Area (the EEA, which = EU +EFTA -Switzerland) is about 50% of UK trade in goods and services. Calling it "the Russia deal" would be more honest. That arrangement is better known as World Trade Organization terms, which are for goods only (UK trade surplus is in Services) and has lots of tariff and non-tariff barriers to trade. Most commentators have said that the effect on the UK would be very severe indeed. It would certainly hurt the EU too, but by nothing like as much.
• No, by leaving the EU, the UK has already left the EEA.

I hope that answers your questions. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:12, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

In fact Australia has some sector agreements with the EU so the PM is bending reality to suit his fairy tale. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:54, 17 October 2020 (UTC)

For more information see this BBC article What does 'no-deal' Australia-style Brexit mean? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:17, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

October 2020 section: collecting citations

will need wrapping up in the next few days. So collecting some citations:

• "Boris Johnson faces Brexit bill defeat at pivotal moment. Lords poised to challenge PM on flouting international law just as talks enter final stage". Financial Times. 28 October 2020. Retrieved 28 October 2020. A European Commission spokesperson said on Tuesday (27 October) that 'both sides are engaging intensively to reach a deal', but one person briefed on the talks said that no breakthroughs had yet been made in unblocking the core sticking points of fisheries, 'level playing field' conditions for business and governance arrangements for the agreement. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |authors= ignored (help) (to be expressed as "one person briefed on the talks told The Financial Times that...)
  • --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 00:03, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Merge of EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement

I created on wp:fr the equivalent of EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement, and I think that Trade negotiation between the UK and the EU should be merge with EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement. And that Fish for finance need to be largely modified. Nouill (talk) 20:13, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

I doubt that anyone who just wants to know what has been agreed really wants to plough through the in and outs of the negotiation. But for other readers, that is an important historical record. Maybe in France the whole thing is not such a huge deal but it certainly is for us in the UK. The F4F article is important because UK inc. makes a loss on all its trading activity except services, especially financial services, so it is very difficult to understand why our government cares more about an industry that earns less than a rounding error for one of the big banks. So no, I disagree with your proposal. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:40, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Agreed with John. IF we were to merge it, than we would have a very long trade negotiation section, resulting in it being farmed out into ... its own article. Let's make one section in the agreement-page on the negotiations with a {{main|Trade negotiation between the UK and the EU}}-template at the top L.tak (talk) 12:22, 26 December 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose The OP fails to explain to explain the benefits of merger. Andrew🐉(talk) 17:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)