Talk:Chufut-Kale

Untitled

...Qırq Or, which Russian historians mistransliterated from Qırq Yer, the authentic rendering from the Arabic script previously used by Crimean Tatars. (Edward A. Allworth, The Tatars of Crimea: Return to the Homeland, p.13[1]) --Тимур (talk) 08:11, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Marvellous place, really worth visiting. Vitaska (talk) 20:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Khazar connection is not sourced

It is claimed that the Crimean Karaites were the descendants of ancient Turkic-speaking Khazars. That seems logical. Because the Khazars were also Turkic speaking and were known to adopt Judaism ( at least the royal family) . However historians are spectical about it. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:01, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to rename this article Chufut-Kale

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved per English-language common name. DrKiernan (talk) 14:29, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

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Juft Qale → Chufut-Kale – Until 1 October 2012, this article was called Çufut Qale, but it was then moved to Juft Qale without discussion. Modern English books on Crimean Karaites use the spelling: Chufut Kale or Chufut-Kale (for example: Philip Miller's Karaite Separatism in Nineteenth Century Russia, and Kevin Brooks' The Jews of Khazaria).

I did a Google Books search, which yielded

• "Juft Qale" - 1
• "Çufut Qale" - 5
• "Chufut Kale" - 102 [2]

I propose moving the article to Chufut-Kale I do not really care whether it has a hyphen.--Toddy1 (talk) 05:14, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Неполканов has made a suggestion at the Talk:Crimean Karaites#Chufut-Kale section. Can anyone explain what his point is there please? I used google translate but just want to be sure I understand the point first. Budo (talk) 11:43, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Of course Chufut Kale.Even Karaylar recently have decided that Juft Kale is problematic name see: http://kale.at.ua/news/o_nazvanii_nacionalnoj_svjatyni_krymskikh_karaimov_oficialno_imenuemoj_chufut_kale

" Крымские караимы всегда называли крепость «Кале», реже – «Чуфт Кале», «Чифт Кале» и «Джуфт Кале». На памятниках родового кладбища и в национальной литературе чаще упоминается «Кале», в устной речи – «Кале» и «Джуфт Кале». Старейшины предпочитают древний этноним «Кале». "

The background of the citing is the following: Karaylar do not like the name "Chufut Kale" meaning "Jewish Fortress",but it looks like there is no majority regarding the recently born Juft Kale claimed by some Karaylar to be ancient name.The exact translation is:

"Crimean Karaites always called the fortress "Kale", sometimes "Chuft Kale", "Chift Kale" and "Juft Kale". On the descent monuments and cemeteries in the national literature often refers to the "Kale", in oral speech - "Kale" and "Juft Kale". The elders prefer the ancient ethnonym "Kale".

My interpretation is that they have not found any written source,regarding "Juft Kale" name,beside post soviet publications of Karaylar authors only. 21:30, 4 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Неполканов (talk • contribs)

• Support - I support the move to Chufut-Kale, with the hyphen for more coherence? warshy^talk 16:46, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
• Comment - Reading the Russian finally now (and my reading is still a little rusty after many years), it reminds me of another confusion, if there aren't enoug alredy. Crimean Karaites in Russian are spelled/called "Krimskii Karaimi". "Krim" (Crimea) and "Karaim" (Karaites in Hebrew, but also in Russian) can be almost looked at, in those areas, as related words... And that is how Firkovich went forth to the Russian Imperial authorities in the 1830's: "Krim Karaim are the real and only Karaim" or something like that. "Karaim are really from Krim." And the Orthodox Russians liked it and bought it, hook and sinker, especially because Krim Karaim, according to Firkovich, were never involved in the crucification of Jesus (being actually ethnically descended from the Khazars), as were the filthy Jews. warshy^talk 17:04, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Firkovich tried to link "Krim" and "Karaimi" etymologically and then later on Seraya Shapshal tried to link Karaims to the Karaylar of Central Asia even further away! Anything except Jews it seems. Firkovi ch's attempt was at least more plausible. Seraya Shapshal seems to have had some specific objective in mind. Budo (talk) 16:00, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Somehow did not see this comment yesterday when it was posted. Only looking at other comments I saw this now. Seraya Shapshal was a shrewd politician and a cold-minded political eleader of the Eastern European Karaites, which in Russian and before the Russian Christian public he called "Karaim" (Hebrew plural, because that was their original historical name). He was raised and educated on the theories of non-Jewish origins of "Karaim" that had been developed by Firkovich even before he was born. The political success achieved by Firkovich and Babovich within the Russian Empire in 1837-40, which won the recognition of the Imperial powers to their theories and to their political and economic goal of securing emancipation for "Karaim" in Russia, (based on the "fact" that they were not of Jewish origins or ancestry, were not ethnically or religiously Jewish in any shape or form, and had never therefore never been involved in the crucifixion of Jesus) could not be denied by any member of the group. The opposite, it brough tangible economic benefits to the group and to its members. separating them completely from the despised and unemancipated Jews of the Empire. Many Jews also probably decided to leave Judaism and join the emancipated "Karaim" through intermsrriage or through simple close social contacts in the course of the 19th century and up to the end of the Russian Czarist Empire with the Boshevik revolution of 1917. The course of complete ethnical and religious separation between emancipated "Karaim" and unemancipated, despised and discriminated Jews started by Firkovich was brought to complete fruition only by Shapshal, who was a high political operative inside the Imperial court, and had highly important political and international diplomatic Imperial missions assigned to him. His specific objective was to cement the religious separation that had been achieved and the ethnic separation that was the political basis and justification for it. In other words, to simply erase any possibility of ever doubting the non-Jewish ethnic origins of the Russiam "Karaim" or their non-Jewish religion, which publicly recognized Jesus and Muhammad as their main prophets. This political and economic process of separation that was definitively cemented during the leadership period of Seraya Shapshal is at the root, still today, of the "historical mess" that has been going on in the English Wikipedia for the past two months, and will continue for a while still. warshy^talk 22:30, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

• Support it looks like this place belonged to the Krymchak Jews (Chufut) long before it had anything to do with anyone else.Budo (talk) 16:00, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

"Chufut" does not mean Krymchaks , In Crimean Tatar language it is similiar to modern American "kike",while "Yahudi" means "Jew"

According non-Karaim sources this place never belonged to any Jews(Rabbinic Krymchaks and Karaites).Its orignal name is not "Chufut Kale" but Fuly and than Kyrk Er("Curved Earth").

Krymchaks and Karaims(mostly Karaims) population appears in Kirk-Er only at XIV c,due to Anti-Jewish restrictions.See http://science.crimea.edu/zapiski/2009/filologiya/uch_22_3fn/172-178.pdf

From the other hand Firkovich and Beim claimed that this place was established by Karaim's forefathers(Israelis not Turks),naming it "Sela Yuhudim"("Jewish Rock" in Hebrew).(See Память о Чуфут-Кале / С. Бейм. — О.: [б.и.], 1862. — 82с., с.431-444)

Johann Tunnman in "Crimean Khanate" book (1783) explains "Chufut Kale" /"Chifut Kalesi" name reason "because this place populated only by Karaite Sect Jews", while other inhabitants left the town.Karaims considered as Jew could not leave the town , due to the restrictions in Crimean Khanate . After Russian Crimea annexation followed by Karaim emancipation the town was totally abandoned.Karaylar claiming that name "Chufut" affected by its Krymchaks population is additional myth to explain why the "non-Jewish" Karaim center was called "Jewish fortress". Additional alternative names were invented for this place in Post Soviet Era .They never used in earlier Russian RS except some spelling errors.Неполканов (talk) 20:03, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I understood exactly what you meant. Chufut is not a Jewish place? Budo (talk) 13:42, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

"Chufut Kale" means "Kike Fortesy" .The town has got this derogatory name only at last period of Crimean Khanate ,because only "Chufut"("kikes" -mainly Karaites, but also some Krymchaks families) had to stay in this abandoned place while all other inhabitants were permitted to leave to new capital (near modern Bakhchisarai).To say this place belongs to depressed Karaims and Krymchaks ,it is like to say that medieval Ghetto belongs to their Jewish inhabitants.Неполканов (talk) 20:54, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Kike!!!!?

• Strongly oppose I had no idea that this was such an insulting and offensive word. If the location ever went by that name, it is clear that the soviets did their best to re-name it with more appropriate language. Not everything the Soviets did was bad. Not every name change imposed by the Soviets was reverted at the end of the Soviet Union and for good reason. There is no good reason why English Wikipedia should promote such offensive and derogatory terms just because they are non-english examples of bad language/profanity. I deeply regret my previous and uninformed vote of support. I hope no one will judge me because of my ignorance in this matter. Juft Kale is just fine, or Dzhuft Kale, or just plain simple Kale. There is no need to pay any attention to publications of out-dated modes of thinking no matter how many examples there may be. If anyone has any consciencew this discussion should be closed before it is reported to the Admin Notice board. Budo (talk) 09:54, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Budo, the situation is more complicated that it is seen apparently.

Till Post-soviet era Karaims never called this place "Juft Kale" or "Dzuft Kale", but "Chufut Kale"

See following Karaims RS are as follows:

• Память о Чуфут-Кале / С. Бейм. — О.: [б.и.], 1862. — 82с., с.431-444
• Фиркович М. Я. Старинный караимский городок Калэ, называемый ныне «Чуфут-Калэ». — Вильна, 1907
• Шапшал С.(Shapshal) Караимы и Чуфут-Кале в Крыму. — СПб., 1895.

Even Karaylar understand this(while some of them are still claiming that "Chufut Kale" offensive).

Even in all Shapshal's publications there is no any "Juft Kale" ,but Chufut Kale(see previous link). In Shapshal's Karaim-Polish-Russian Dictionary( Караимско-русско-польский словарь / Н. А. Баскаков, А. Зайончковский, С. Ш. Шапшал, 1974 p. 633) "Chufut" is translated as simply "Jew",while "Kale" and not "Juft Kale" is a name for Chufut Kale(p 683),possibly shortened name.

It is often may happen when word that offensive in one language is not offensive in other one-e.g "Żyd" (Zhyd) the only Polish word for "Jew" , in Russian has offensive meaning of "Kike".

"Chufut Kale", in spite of its problematic etymology,is the only name for the place on all maps and in all languages(see languages links of the article ),while "ancient Karaim names" "Juft Kale" or "Dzuft Kale" is modern Karaylar mythology, rejected even by Karaylar "elders". I cited and translated the relevant RS about this issue above at 4 October 2012.

So the article cannot be named "Juft Kale"Неполканов (talk)

• Strongly Support Неполканов (talk) 20:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Neutrality

I have read that a Neutral Point of view is very important on Wikipedia so I have tried to make this article more objective since it seems all mention of Krymchaks was omitted from the original version of this very biased article. The Ukrainian Government has officially recognised the Krymchak history and Crimean Karaites no-longer have free access to the area. There was a fear that evidence of Jewish life left by the Krymchaks was being destroyed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Krymchak Khan (talk • contribs) 10:48, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Several families of Krymchak indeed lived at Chufut Kale.See "Гурджи и ашкенази, или крымчаки в городе Чуфут-Кале"/ М. Кизилов // Крымчаки, 2009. т.№ 4.-С.12-15. I agree with you that this fact may be mentioned in this article. But it is wrong to claim that this place is the significant center of Krymchak Culture due to their minority there.Isaac Sangari graveyard near the fortress usually considered as Firkovich forgery to prove that he was Karaite.So I suggest to omit it.

The etimology of the name is from Tatar “Jewish fortress” with negative and scornful meaning (see RS in the article) and not Krymchaks name: the usual name used by fortress inhabitants,Karaites and Krymchaks called the place Kyrk-Yer and not Chufut Kale(see Чуфут-кале // Энциклопедический словарь Брокгауза и Ефрона: В 86 томах (82 т. и 4 доп.). — СПб., 1890—1907

The claim that Sela Yuhudim was used also in Krymchak literature needs to be proven by RS or removed.Неполканов (talk) 22:40, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

This article shows the Crimean Karaite are now restricted from free-use of the site. http://15minut.org/article/karaimov-snova-ne-puskajut-v-ih-svjatynju

There is no any mention of Krymchaks in this article and Crimean Karaite camp restriction is not related to Krymchak history but to "Cultural heritage protection law" preventing some kinds of private activity in this historical protected by government area.Неполканов 10:49, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

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Sela' ha-Yehudim, really?!

[To the] "Karaites [it was known as] '"Sela' ha-Yehudim (Hebrew for 'Rock of the Jews')."

Very dubious. Did it really receive a Hebrew name? When and how? Was Hebrew more than a liturgic language for the Crimean Karaites? Also, the 2nd Russian source has "Села-Юхудим", so w/o "ha-" (and I cannot quite figure out the vowels), so not a perfect Hebrew genitive form, which means that the source is in part misquoted.

I doubt it very much that Karaites used place-names in perfect Hebrew in their daily life. Arminden (talk) 10:02, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

• I believe that Юхудим would be read and/or pronounced "yukhudim," if I'm not mistaken. I think your assumptions above are correct.Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 15:27, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

References