Talk:10/40 window

Overview

Update: August 2007. The article appears to be mostly stable now. One cited value (number of Jews in the Window) is clearly erroneous and has been noted as such. Unfortunately, no other published source has yet been found for that data. Could it be that the controversies have been resolved?

To the reader: please read the extensive discussion below as well as the archived discussion here before editing and/or adding additional comments. This article has been extensively examined and edited to achieve good neutrality, good citations, etc. Perhaps the most important points missed by many readers:

• The research was done in 1990. Today's data might well show a different result (which would likely validate the work done since 1990 to bring more attention to this part of the world!) Please do not compare your knowledge of the world today with what is described in this article.
• The nations of the 10/40 Window are there because of geography, not culture. Any nation that was at least 50 percent inside the window, is a Window nation. This list is a 1990 list of nations. If you want to update due to more recent name changes (e.g. Sudan is now two nations), please follow the existing pattern by leaving the original list alone and adding parenthetical remarks.

Most of the extensive discussions about disputed topics have been resolved since 2007. Those discussions have been moved to an archive page; the topics are summarized below. See Talk:10/40_Window/Archive_1

New Discussion

Any new/current discussion should be added here. Of special interest: improving the wording and/or tightening up the "lead" to improve the rating.

As far as I can tell, the article is now class "B". Mr Pete (talk) 13:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Title format: Should be capitalized to be consistent with usage in the article ThinkWellThinkGlobal (talk) 03:16, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Most Frequent Article Edit Errors

These edits are repeatedly made. They are all incorrect. Please re-read the material below as well as the archived discussion.

• Italy, Spain and Ethiopia are not in the Window. North and South Korea are in the Window. Gibraltar and Macau were not considered independent nations at the time.
• Current economic status of China, Israel, Oil nations, etc is immaterial. The study was done in 1990, based on 1980's data.
• Be cautious when introducing heavily religious elements to the article. The analysis was a scientific correlation study based on widely recognized data. The implications of that study for various groups, whether missionaries or others, are really a separate topic.

Mr Pete (talk) 22:11, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

More incorrect edits, mostly based on previously resolved discussion in the archive:

• Lists of "Christian nations." There's no generally accepted definition for this term, and there's no evidence such analysis was done in the 1990 10/40 Window study. A new study might produce some information on this; it would need citations and would be a separate topic, probably outside the scope of this article.
• The analysis was not of "presence of Christianity" but "access to Christian resources." These are not the same; see the linked references in the article. (Simple examples: a half-hour radio broadcast once a week, or a Bible on the shelf in a bookstore, represents "access" more than "presence.")

Mr Pete (talk) 10:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Resolved Disputes

Origin/coining of the term 10/40 Window.

The term cannot have been coined in 1990 by Luis Bush, because the term appears in the book The Coming Revolution in World Missions by K. P. Yohannan published in 1986. I don't know who coined this term, but it is goes back to 1986 at least. Xtian1977 (talk) 22:28, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Others have made edits based on the idea that the term was in use elsewhere in the early 1980's, e.g. YWAM or USCWM (Dr. Ralph Winter).

• Resolution: the term does not appear in the original edition of Yohannan's book; it was added in more recent revisions. The term really did originate in 1990. Reverting Xtian1977's edits. (Further info added: Yohannan's book claims to have been heavily edited for the 2004 edition, which is available online. The earlier editions (at least 1986-1995) do not reference the 10/40 Window. Unfortunately, the Google "1986" edition is actually from much later, with comments about eleven years of feedback, etc. Check their 1995 version for proof.)

--Mr Pete (talk) 10:30, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Additional disputes below are condensed from the now-archived talk pages. Mr Pete (talk) 13:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

Are these the correct nations?

Concern:

• Wealthy and/or "Christian" nations are included; poor and/or "non-Christian" nations are excluded.

Resolution:

• This is a generalization. Exceptions exist and are noted in the article.
• The term is an historical one, based on analysis done in 1990, using data available at the time. Today's data is immaterial.

Are the cited sources valid, NPOV, etc?

Concerns:

• Should "biased sources on both sides of an issue" be cited? Some would prefer citation of only neutral sources.
• Are "Christian" sources valid?

Resolution:

• Yes and yes...
• Read Wikipedia policy, which [recommends] quoting without promoting or berating sources that reflect various POV's.
• Read the policy on reliable sources.
• Read the policy on verifiability
• Read the NPOV FAQ, particularly here: Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/FAQ#Making_necessary_assumptions
• Readers not familiar with the subject matter may be unaware that there's an extensive academic corpus behind the topic of Christianity, people group research, etc. Accredited college majors, journals, etc etc. "Christian" publications are not automatically excluded from Wikipedia as having a POV bias.

Is/was the cited data and analysis valid?

Concerns:

• Some see this as saying Christianity brings wealth, or that the problem is lack of evangelism.
• Some find the facts presented unsettling.

Resolution:

• The analysis found correlations, not causes.
• The analysis examined long term impact. Recent change does not invalidate the study.
• It found correlation between poverty/suffering and a lack of Christian resources. There's an implication that introducing Christian influence can assist with escape from poverty and suffering. That's not the same as equating prosperity and Christianity. There was no study of prosperity.
• The facts presented are based on (1990) valid, authoritative sources, all properly cited.
• Many concerns raised looked at today's population or poverty measures, rather than those available in 1990.
• Many concerns raised confused "western" religion with global data.
• Some do not know that Christianity has not been a "white, western" faith for a long time.
• Some concern was raised about questions of "access" to Christian resources. This is examined extensively in the cited references, particularly the World Christian Encyclopedia and Operation World.

Any dispute of the cited facts needs to be based on authoritative sources.

But aren't Christians responsible for oppressing these nations?

Concerns:

• Individuals, and even nations, have sometimes had horrible policy and practices. That doesn't relate to the question of Christian resources and influence.
• A good case study is India, obviously long under British rule. Yet the outcastes of India are held in place by a variety of factors; many would argue that much of this has to do with the upper classes enjoying the "benefit" of a slave class. One of the more eloquent is the "Tocqueville" of India, Vishal Mangalwadi. In The Quest for Freedom and Dignity: Caste, conversion and cultural revolution" he argues passionately that 'Caste, karma, and reincarnation created today's Hindu hierarchy, but caste cannot coexist with democracy. Democracy, built on the biblical principles of justice and equality, is driving Dalits and other lower caste Hindus to rise up against 3,000 years of Hindu caste-driven "apartheid."'

References

Eastern hemisphere only?

Portugal is included, I noticed, yet from a geographical standpoint, Portugal is west of the Prime Meridian, as is Great Britain. So, is this 10/40 geographical primarily or what?Jlujan69 (talk) 01:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

• Good question. "Eastern hemisphere" can be the arbitrary degree-based definition, but most people use the more traditional occidental/oriental definition, where eastern is the "half" of the world that includes Eurasia, Africa and Australia. cf http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=eastern%20hemisphere Mr Pete (talk) 21:18, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Significance in Evangelical Christianity section

This entire section is purely meaningless drivel. It belongs on a missions website, not an encyclopedia. I propose eliminating the section because there is no way to salvage it.--68.40.223.225 (talk) 17:25, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree; I went ahead and cut it. Auntie E. (talk) 05:19, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Dead link

(Several dead links repaired) Mr Pete (talk) 13:48, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

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Requested move 21 May 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. No opposition voiced. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane ^talk 05:50, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

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10/40 Window → 10/40 window – Not a proper noun. 142.161.81.20 (talk) 04:50, 13 January 2018 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:42, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink).  — Amakuru (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

• Comment this was moved in January, but has now been contested by Mr Pete (permalink) so I've reverted back to the long-term stable version of10/40 Window and listing it here for discussion.  — Amakuru (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sources

This: this "Despite the technicaJ explanations and elaborate coding rubric, the underlying framework reflects the persistence of scientific racism and discredited anthropological classification systems. As a result, one theologian laments that the 10/40 Window concept and people group research are based on outdated anthropology, poor quality geography and questionable theology, and comments that this combination has become "another colonial burden that has to be borne" (Rynkiewich 2007, 225)." and this. Doug Weller talk 18:06, 25 August 2018 (UTC)

Interesting quote, yet provided (even in the original) without factual basis. (Example: "poor quality geography" is claimed, based on an assumption that the Mercator projection was used. That's both false and obviously immaterial. Geography doesn't depend on the projection used to display a map. One can easily create a GIS feature with lines on 10 and 40 degrees north latitude and project it with any projection at all. :-D ) Mr Pete (talk) Mr Pete (talk) 21:39, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

For the second link, one must consider whether the author did any research on the subject. "...as a compelling rhetorical vision for some American evangelicals" presumes a very Western emphasis. What I can obtain in a few seconds of searching: the various "Praying Through the Window" month-long event involved tens of millions of people from dozens of nations (102 nations recorded for PTW2). Given that the church is largely rooted in the "global south", it's hard to imagine a less American effort. When I get a few more Round Tuits, I'll work on finding specific sources for more detail if possible. Mr Pete (talk) 21:58, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Boko Haram

The Boko Haram terrorist group is a response to Christian evangelization in the 10/40 window. How can it be effectively added to this article? Jasonagastrich (talk) 20:44, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

That sounds quite simplistic... AnonMoos (talk) 01:38, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

You'd need sources making that statement. Doug Weller talk 15:57, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Here's a resource with several theories on this group's history. None of them appear to have any connection to the topic of this WP page. https://www.brookings.edu/articles/explaining-the-emergence-of-boko-haram/ Mr Pete (talk) 22:04, 18 September 2023 (UTC)