Talk:10th Mountain Assault Brigade

Are info. sources reliable ?

" According to Zubanych in an interview at the time... main purpose of the brigade at the time was to protect Bukovina from Romanian territorial claims . "

Wtf?!! A NATO & EU country to invade Ukraine ..LOL^ , the "hero" is confused (at best) , like much of Ukraine intelligentsia."West" needs a prosperous and viable Ukraine , Romania even more . ^at a time when Russia invaded to keep the "brotherly" Ukraine "neutral" and "protect russian speaking people" --82.11.206.181 (talk) 16:54, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Edelweiss honorific - Nazi association

There was an edit war over the following piece of information: in Ukraine and beyond, the use of symbols associated with Nazi Germany (such as the Edelweiss) is a huge controversy connected to the civil war before the Russian attack. It is, to say the least, a contentious subject. I don't believe we can consider this article a neutral presentation of the facts if this controversy is deliberately left out but many dismiss this issue as Russian propaganda or a Russian narrative.

In light of Ukraine's incorporating neo-Nazi Azov brigade into regular army, and extensive Western reporting on neo-Nazis in Azov movement, as well as the Bandera parades... it's clear this is not just some Russian propaganda. The fact is that the neo-Nazi issue and the Edelweiss honorific's connection to the historical Nazi German 1st Mountain Division comes up immediately in a google search on this subject. Wikipedia can't just ignore it. Now that the page is protected, I think we need moderators to determine how best to present the information.

Talataash (talk) 13:46, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Reliable sources saying this? Leontopodium nivale (edelweiss) is a mountain flower.JoeZ451 (talk) 16:02, 18 February 2023 (UTC) sock puppet Icewhiz

Regarding the Nazi German 'Edelweiss' Brigade (1st Mountain Division (Wehrmacht)) and their use of this symbol and (informally) honorific name, the division and its various war crimes are described in H. F. Meyer's book Bloodstained Edelweiss: The 1st Mountain Division in the Second World War. This division comes up immediately in google searches for the 'Edelweiss brigade', which is now the honorific name of the 10th Separate Mountain Assault Brigade (Ukraine).

Regarding the controversy over symbols used by Nazi Germany in the modern Ukrainian military, I cited many sources, here they are with the /ref commands crudely cut out:

Giuliano, Elise (20 October 2015). "The Social Bases of Support for Self-determination in East Ukraine". Ethnopolitics. 14 (5): 513–522. doi:10.1080/17449057.2015.1051813. ISSN 1744-9057. S2CID 142999704. More dangerously, as the violence heated up, Kiev allowed semi-private paramilitary groups—such as the far right, neo-Nazi Azov Battalion—to fight in east Ukraine (Walker, 2014; Luhn, 2014).

• Koehler, Daniel (7 October 2019). "A Threat from Within? Exploring the Link between the Extreme Right and the Military". International Centre for Counter-Terrorism. His own involvement in the militant extreme right movement predated his enlistment and Smith also was trying to join the neo-Nazi paramilitary Azov battalion and fight on their side in the Ukrainian conflict.
• Mudde, Cas (25 October 2019). The Far Right Today. John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-5095-3685-6 – via Google Books. And in Ukraine, tens of thousands of far-right activists march through the streets of Kyiv, sometimes in torchlight processions, to commemorate old and new far-right heroes, including those of the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, which fights against the Russian-backed occupation of Crimea.
• Edelman, Marc (9 November 2020). "From 'populist moment' to authoritarian era: challenges, dangers, possibilities". The Journal of Peasant Studies. 47 (7): 1418–1444. doi:10.1080/03066150.2020.1802250. ISSN 0306-6150. S2CID 225214310. Just as hundreds of U.S. and European white supremacists joined Croatian paramilitaries fighting for 'ethnic cleansing' in the 1990s Balkan wars, the current training of foreign white nationalists in Ukrainian military units, such as the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion, points to...
• McKenzie, Nick; Tozer, Joel (22 August 2021). "Fears of neo-Nazis in military ranks after ex-soldier's passport cancelled". The Age. Retrieved 8 April 2022. Mr Sretenovic was intercepted by ASIO and the Australian Border Force at Melbourne Airport in January 2020 bearing a ticket to Belgrade, Serbia. He later told supporters he was travelling to meet a girlfriend and Serbian relatives. But state and federal authorities, who had spent months investigating him, believed he was planning to travel to Ukraine to fight with the Azov Battalion, a neo-Nazi militia fighting Russian forces.
• Allchorn, William (21 December 2021). Moving beyond Islamist Extremism. Books on Demand. p. 35. ISBN 978-3-8382-1490-0 – via Google Books. ...antisemitic and white-supremacist conspiracy theories circulated by openly neo-fascist and neo-Nazi groups, such as the Azov Battalion in the Ukraine...
• Bacigalupo, James; Valeri, Robin Maria; Borgeson, Kevin (14 January 2022). Cyberhate: The Far Right in the Digital Age. Rowman & Littlefield. p. 113. ISBN 978-1-7936-0698-3 – via Google Books. The ascendency of a transnational global fascist terrorist network has drawn accelerationists seeking military training with openly neo-Nazi, white supremacist, anti-Semitic organizations like the Azov battalion, who recruited from...
• Ali, Taz (19 March 2022). "Ukraine could follow Afghanistan into years of turmoil as West follows 'mujahideen model'". i. Retrieved 8 April 2022.</ref>
• Frankel Pratt, Simon; LaRoche, Christopher David (29 March 2022). "Ukraine's Refugees Are Close Enough for European Solidarity". Foreign Policy. Retrieved 8 April 2022. Minority media narratives focusing on the activities of the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion participating in Ukraine's defense have not generated broader fears that Ukrainian refugee flows harbor potential terrorist elements

"The separatists fired on a bus with fighters of the "AZOV" special police battalion". National Police of Ukraine. 7 May 2014. Archived from the original on 12 April 2018. Retrieved 12 April 2018.

Lazaredes, Nicholas (23 March 2015). "Ukraine crisis: Inside the Mariupol base of the controversial Azov battalion". ABC News. Sydney. Archived from the original on 15 February 2022. Retrieved 18 April 2020.

Jones, Seth G. (2018). "The Rise of Far-Right Extremism in the United States". csis.org. Retrieved 8 April 2022. ...groups like the Azov Battalion, a paramilitary unit of the Ukrainian National Guard, which the FBI says is associated with neo-Nazi ideology.

Sheerin, Jude (17 March 2022). "Who are the Azov battalion defending Mariupol?". BBC. ...Wolfsangel insignia, which was used by notorious Nazi SS units...

Hume, Tim (16 February 2022). "How a Far-Right Battalion Became a Part of Ukraine's National Guard". Vice. Archived from the original on 6 March 2022. Retrieved 7 March 2022.

Hopkins, Valerie (9 March 2022). "After a Week of Siege, Bloodied Mariupol Plans Mass Graves". The New York Times.

"Inside Azov, the far-Right brigade killing Russian generals and playing a PR game in the Ukraine war". The Daily Telegraph. 18 March 2022. Retrieved 1 April 2022.

According to Biletsky, the emblem that many consider to be the Nazi "wolf trap", "Idea of the Nation" – is the intersection of the letters of the Latin alphabet "and" and "N"</ref>

Newman, Dina (16 July 2014). "Ukraine conflict: 'White power' warrior from Sweden". BBC News. Archived from the original on 28 February 2022. Retrieved 21 June 2018.

Pugliese, David (26 June 2015). "Ukrainian unit accused of Neo-Nazi links wants Canada's help". Ottawa Citizen. Archived from the original on 1 July 2019. Retrieved 20 December 2017.

Kheel, Rebecca (27 March 2018). "Congress bans arms to Ukraine militia linked to neo-Nazis". The Hill. Archived from the original on 27 February 2022. Retrieved 27 May 2021. Rep. Ro Khanna (D-Calif.), an outspoken critic of providing lethal aid to Ukraine, said... "I am very pleased that the recently passed omnibus prevents the U.S. from providing arms and training assistance to the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion fighting in Ukraine."

Peterson, Nolan (10 August 2015). "How a Swedish Sniper Found Redemption in the Ukraine War". dailysignal.com. Archived from the original on 2 November 2019. Retrieved 11 April 2018. But the overwhelming majority of Azov soldiers say they're fighting for Ukraine's sovereignty and to repel what they call a 'Russian invasion' of their homeland. Those with far-right convictions live and fight side-by-side soldiers from 22 countries and various backgrounds, including Arabs, Russians, and Americans—as well as Christians, Muslims, and Jews.

"Factbox: Last defenders of Mariupol: what is Ukraine's Azov Regiment?". Reuters. 17 May 2022. Retrieved 18 May 2022. It is not clear how many troops serve under Azov, but some media reports have put the number at between 900 and 2,500.

"Deutsche heuern bei rechtsextremem ukrainischen Bataillon an". Der Spiegel. 11 November 2017. Archived from the original on 21 February 2022. Retrieved 1 March 2022.

"Profile: Who are Ukraine's far-right Azov regiment?". Al Jazeera. 3 March 2022. Archived from the original on 2 March 2022. Retrieved 7 March 2022.

None of these sources are connected to Russian propaganda in any way, yet this is getting dismissed as Russian propaganda. We need to find a way to present this information neutrally and with proper context.

Talataash (talk) 22:08, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Which source mentions 10th brigade? Manyareasexpert (talk) 15:20, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Those were the citations for the controversy connected to the civil war (before the Russian attack) regarding symbols associated with Nazi Germany, such as the Edelweiss. It occurs to me now that you mention it that we do need to use articles that mentions the 10th brigade specifically, where the ongoing controversy is especially relevant to this specific brigade and not the Ukrainian military altogether. We could add the following:

• Sharma, Rakshit (16 February 2023). "Zelenskyy styles Ukrainian army division with title related to Nazi forces". Firstpost. The new title bears stark similiarity to a moniker used by the Nazi Germany's 1st Mountain Division. ... Zelenskyy has often sparked rows over Nazi-related controversies.

Talataash (talk) 16:27, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

You really believe this source? Manyareasexpert (talk) 10:37, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Excuse me? It's mainstream media from India. Look them up on Wikipedia.

2001:1970:4F5D:7900:0:0:0:C1A8 (talk) 12:51, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Exactly what is it about this news website, apart from it being from India, that you find so difficult to accept? Talataash (talk) 12:52, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Well first I checked the wiki page on Nazi division and it doesnt mention it was named "Edelweiss" or doesnt mention "Edelweiss" at all other than in "identification symbol" or "operation Edelweiss" - 1st Mountain Division (Wehrmacht). Hmm... Manyareasexpert (talk) 13:32, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

You didn't check very thoroughly. One of the citations is:

Meyer, H. F. "Bloodstained Edelweiss. The 1st Mountain-Division in the Second World War"

"Hmm..."

Will you now answer the question about Firstpost, or are you just avoiding admitting your obvious bias against India online? Talataash (talk) 14:04, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Meyer, H. F. "Bloodstained Edelweiss. The 1st Mountain-Division in the Second World War" - from your source - The Edelweiss – worn on the cap and sleeve – was the insignia of the 1st Mountain-Division of the Wehrmacht, an elite troop resurrected in the Federal Army (Bundeswehr) eleven years after the end of the war under the same name by former leaders of the Wehrmacht. In these circles and in a post-war Comrades Association of the Mountain Troops (“Kameradenkreis der Gebirgstruppe”) the Edelweiss is regarded even now as a symbol of the “best German military tradition in war and peace”. See, now we could start getting suspicious about Firstpost. Manyareasexpert (talk) 14:18, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand what your point is supposed to be here, Manyareasexpert. The fact that the Edelweiss continues to be used by Germans as a symbol of their 'military tradition' is no surprise. The fact that this was the informal name of the Nazi German 1st Mountain Division is the part which is relevant to the ongoing controversy with neo-Nazi symbology in Ukrainian miltitary, and specifically, the new honorific name of the 10th Separate Mountain Assault Brigade. Firstpost is a major news website cited many times on Wikipedia. Your attempts to discredit them from the very beginning are transparently prejudiced. Talataash (talk) 14:34, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

The fact that this was the informal name of the Nazi German 1st Mountain Division - As we just found out, it is not the fact, its simply not true. Manyareasexpert (talk) 14:40, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Manyareasexpert, the book you're referring to uses that name for them in its title. Are you being deliberately obtuse with me?

Talataash (talk) 14:42, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

See article content - The Edelweiss – worn on the cap and sleeve – was the insignia of the 1st Mountain-Division of the Wehrmacht. Manyareasexpert (talk) 14:44, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Repeating yourself does not make what you say true. The name for them, taken from their insignia - 'Edelweiss'- is literally used in that book's title. You are attempting to distort the facts by taking the fact that an edelweiss flower is the insignia, and presenting this as if it were evidence the brigade were not referred to by the name 'Edelweiss'. Frankly, I suspect you are being disingenuous.

Talataash (talk) 14:47, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

The title says - Bloodstained Edelweiss. The 1st Mountain-Division in the Second World War. It does not directly says Edelweiss is the division's name. From these two sentences, it could be deducted that Edelweiss was the division's name, or that it was not. To find out, you need to look article content. And there you will find out that it was an insignia not the name.

as if it were evidence the brigade were not referred to by the name 'Edelweiss' - now the brigade could be referred by that name by after-war sources. There is a difference between being referred by name, and having that name. Manyareasexpert (talk) 14:56, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

"It does not directly says Edelweiss is the division's name" "There is a difference between being referred by name, and having that name." Okay listen, that's fair enough and I'm sorry for getting short with you before, but I honestly don't believe that distinction is very relevant! The fact the name was given to them informally is just not the point. This controversy exists on a large scale regardless, and there is nothing wrong with Firstpost as a reference source for it. Firstpost is a major and well-respected Indian news website, it's not just some random guy's webpage. As I have said from the beginning, the article can't just leave this controversy omitted if we're going to report on this situation neutrally, we just need the information to be shown with all relevant context... preferably something included on how this situation is exploited by Russian propaganda.

Talataash (talk) 15:45, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

This controversy exists on a large scale - well if the scale really is big, there should be other sources more precise and less propaganda than the only one mentioning it (Firstpost), other than some random tweets? Manyareasexpert (talk) 15:51, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

but I honestly don't believe that distinction is very relevant - now the distinction could be relevant or not, but its time to start being suspicious about the Firstpost, isn't it? Manyareasexpert (talk) 15:53, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

I posted a ton of sources regarding this controversy in Ukraine's modern military already... scroll up! It's been an ongoing controversy for a long time. And exactly how is Firstpost to be considered propaganda? It's not state-owned at all. Why exactly are you suspicious of Firstpost? I keep asking and you keep not answering. Talataash (talk) 16:08, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

I posted a ton of sources regarding this controversy in Ukraine's modern military already... scroll up! - none talks about 10th brigade, right?
Why exactly are you suspicious of Firstpost? - being not precise in one thing may mean being more erroneous in other, right? Manyareasexpert (talk) 16:25, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

"none talks about 10th brigade, right?"

Those were citations for controversy connected to Ukraine civil war (before the Russian attack) regarding symbols associated with the Nazis, including the Edelweiss. This is obviously relevant to the new controversy regarding this new honoriific for 10th Separate Mountain Assault Brigade as part of a larger pattern of Nazi-related controversy in modern Ukrainian military. We are repeating the same conversation we had before now. I suggested adding the source that mentions the 10th specifically, Firstpost, and you seem to have a problem with Firstpost. "you really believe that source" was your initial reaction, apparently just because it's not the BBC (which by the way is state owned media!) Your assertion that it is "propaganda" is baseless.

"being not precise in one thing may mean being more erroneous in other, right?"

They were not imprecise or erroneous in that article, Manyareasexpert, despite your assertions. That moniker for that Nazi German brigade is documented and I have already shown you this. Must we keep talking in circles?

Talataash (talk) 16:31, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Those were citations for controversy connected to Ukraine civil war (before the Russian attack) regarding symbols associated with the Nazis, including the Edelweiss. - then find an article to which this information belongs to.
That moniker for that Nazi German brigade - we just found out it was an insignia, not a moniker. Manyareasexpert (talk) 16:37, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

"then find an article to which this information belongs to."

I did, but as I said, we need to include the rest too. This is obviously relevant to the new controversy regarding this new honoriific for 10th Separate Mountain Assault Brigade as part of a larger pattern of Nazi-related controversy in modern Ukrainian military.

"we just out it was an insignia, not a moniker" Seriously? You are once again attempting to distort the facts by taking the fact that an edelweiss flower is the insignia, and presenting this as if it were evidence that the brigade were not referred to by the name 'Edelweiss'. Which it is referred to that way, in the very book you are referring to.

16:49, 20 February 2023 (UTC) Talataash (talk) 16:49, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

You are once again attempting to distort the facts by taking the fact that an edelweiss flower is the insignia, and presenting this as if it were evidence that the brigade were not referred to by the name 'Edelweiss'.

Quote from the Firstpost: The new title bears stark similiarity to a moniker used by the Nazi Germany’s 1st Mountain Division. Manyareasexpert (talk) 16:55, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Not even mentioning the fact the article already cites Radio Free Europe (US gov owned) and Ukrainska Pravda (part of the Kiev hub, a Ukraine gov project)... but Firstpost (private ownership) is called propaganda? you're ridiculous man.

2001:1970:4F5D:7900:0:0:0:C1A8 (talk) 17:10, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Why Ukrainian troop use German name? Associated with II World War name of brigade and operation is natural, unfortunately. Maybe to do category with more these German symbols on this war of both sites? KKE 31.178.95.17 (talk) 00:27, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

The roots of this unit are in the Bukowina, which was part of the Austrian Empire 1775 to 1918. The Edelweiss is officially used as badge for alpine units of the Austro-Hungerian Army since 1907. There were also an "Edelweiss Division" and an "Edelweiss Korps", the later operating in todays Ukraine during WWI. Calling the Edelweiss a "Nazi-Symbol" is bogus. No.6 (talk) 11:49, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

correcting the quote

Talataash (talk) 16:29, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

For the record: Ukrainska Pravda is not government owned and has been critical of all Ukrainian governments since it was launched in 2000. I have no idea what this "Kiev hub, a Ukraine gov project" is supposed to be... But Ukrainska Pravda continues to be critical about (also) the current government of Ukraine. Unlike in Russia where all critical media is banned by the way. Banning critical media is much worse then calling an military unit 'Edelweiss'. Banning critical media is something that Nazi Germany did. Hence if anyone wants to associated something with Nazi German, they can associate the current russian government with Nazi German... — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:02, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

There used to be several military unit in Russia called "Edelweiss" 5 years ago. 5 years ago "Edelweiss" was not a symbol associated with Nazi Germany according to russia's so called government and now it is? — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 15:17, 21 February 2023 (UTC)