Talk:1872 Scotland v England football match

The playing style of Scotland in 1872

The article (in its current form) does not give suitable recognition to the Scotland team for playing a passing game. The contemporary account of passing from the Graphic illustrated newspaper is partially quoted in the article but is immediately and unfairly criticised. Individual references to Scottish players dribbling the ball are highlighted (as if passing and dribbling somehow cannot coincide in team based tactics or playing styles).

By 1872 Queen’s Park had developed a ‘culture of passing’ which augmented the traditional dribbling style prevalent in the Association game. The Scotland team, made up entirely of Queen’s Park members, retained this playing style for the first international match against England. The argument for this statement is provided below.

Specific references contained within the primary sources for the first international football match can be better understood by building up a profile of the contemporary Queen’s Park style through the methodology of propospography. A range of information including eyewitness accounts of the game, analysis of the Queen’s Park playing style from notable experts, and evidence from other Queen’s Park matches from around the time of this game help to contextualise the primary newspaper sources and certainly explain why references for passing and dribbling are attributed to the Scotland team.

The simple fact remains that the style of game adopted by Scotland (Queen’s Park) in this match, as in other matches of the period, involved passing and dribbling. Certainly the players dribbled the ball but when it was more advantageous to make a pass the players passed. Charles W. Alcock’s own observation on the success of Queen’s Park teams states, 'It has been the combination of dribbling and passing that has made the Queen's Park and other Scotch elevens such splendid teams'.

Even the Graphic newspaper article which gives an important reference to ball passing amongst the Scotland team also gives a specific reference to a Scotland player dribbling the ball (already quoted in the article). The inclusion of individual references to dribbling does not take away from the notion that the Scotland team were also passing the ball.

There are other examples around the time of this game which demonstrates a passing culture within the Queen’s Park team. One good example can be quoted from a match which took place eight months before the first international match. Another good example comes less than three months after the first international. In the first example the Field magazine notes of the Queen’s Park team in the FA Cup semi final tie against Wanderers (March 1872)…

“They dribble little and usually convey the ball by a series of long kicks, combined with a judicious plan of passing on.”

The Glasgow Herald newspaper’s coverage of the semi final tie shows a marked difference in styles between the Glasgow and London playing styles,

“The play of the Glasgow 11 was most creditable, as their forwards worked well together, and their backs kicked with great accuracy. On the other hand, the Wanderers dribbled and played skilfully.... but collectively they hardly showed so well as their antagonists.”

In February 1873, less than three months after the first international, Queen’s Park are quoted playing a five man passing move in their match against Vale of Leven…

“Shortly before time was called the Queen's Park came away in fine style, and drove their opponents before them - Messrs Gardner, Leckie, Wotherspoon, Taylor and M'Kinnon working beautifully to each other's feet.”

All of the five players mentioned in this passage played for Scotland in the first international match.

Now examine the ‘eyewitness’ account of Walter Arnott which gives specific detail as to the respective playing styles of the two teams in the first international football match,

“The English team was by far the heavier one. Their forwards played an individual game, and were much faster than those on the Scottish side, whose forward work was done in pairs. What a treat it was to see Clegg or Ottaway getting their ball near their own goal, and making off at a great pace down the field, and only being robbed of it by someone in the last line of the Scottish defence! Then, again, to watch the great Jamie Weir – the prince of dribblers – and his partner, by splendid combined play rushing down the wing and centring the ball with great accuracy right into the goal-mouth.”

The team work adopted by English Association sides at this time has subsequently been labelled as ‘backing up’. This system was one of cooperation with a pack of forwards working together to support the dribbler in possession of the ball. It involved team work and cooperation but was not a passing culture. The fact that the England XI was made up from representatives of nine different clubs would help to explain why the Scotsman newspaper reports the following,

‘During the first half of the game the English team did not work so well together, but in the second half they left nothing to be desired in this respect’.

This passage does not mean that the Scotland and England teams of 1872 had similar playing styles, rather that the 11 England players by the second half were starting to come to terms with each others play, something perhaps understandably that had been missing in the first half.

The primary sources can be better understood once placed within a wider context. The fact that the Scotland players came from one club clearly enabled the club style of play to be adopted. The Scotsman therefore can state that the Scotland team “worked from first to last well together, through knowing each others play” while the Herald observes that "The strong point of the home club was that they played excellently well together."

The Graphic illustrated newspaper provides a reflective overview of the game. It is a primary source published within two weeks of the match (the second available date for publication of this weekly paper) and is based on the observations of the Glasgow based sketch artist, who attended the game. The style of the article is that of a weekly newspaper reflecting on a game that had already been well covered by the daily newspapers, hence the following line,

“We shall not here describe the match, every incident of which, as detailed in the sporting journals, has doubtless long since been perused by football enthusiasts…”

The article once again draws upon the different styles of the respective teams with credit being given to individual players on the England side and the Scots, collectively, being credited with passing the ball.

“Individual skill was generally on England's side, the dribbling of Kirke Smith, Brockbank, and Ottaway being very fine, while Welch, half-back, showed himself a safe and good kick. The Southrons, however, did not play to each other so well as their opponents, who seem to be adepts in passing the ball”

Based on this information, the article should give credit to the culture of passing that Queen’s Park had developed and which was subsequently adopted by the Scotland team in this historic match. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.20.68.188 (talk) 14:18, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Merge From England v Scotland (1870)

The article on the earlier games is brief, poorly sourced and factually incorrect. It states that the 1870 match "is sometimes described as "unofficial" in Scotland"; not true, the 1870 game is viewed as unofficial by all bodies - importantly including FIFA and the FA - as they were organised entirely by the FA, with no attempt to make the teams fully representative of the two nations. An international match involves teams seperatly organised by different governing bodies: on this occaision the FA and Queen's Park, and later the FA and the SFA. It is not for Wikipedia to contradict those who operate and organise international football and whose prerogative it is to decide what counts as an international or not.

They form an interesting precursor to the 1872 match and are worth discussing; they should not be hidden but they are mentioned in the 'background' section here already, which I think is sufficient. Pretty Green (talk) 11:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Scotland and England are nations? Grassynoel (talk) 14:19, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

When it comes to football, they are. --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 14:27, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

BAD IDEA. CF Alcock published an open-invitation in a Scottish newspaper inviting homegrown Scottish entries to this 1870 game! This is not at all the "all English" match it is held to be in some parts! It is hardly surprising that the game was only approved by the English FA: it was the only FA in the world! Even the "official" 1872 game was before the foundation of the Scottish FA and therefore was only approved by one nation's FA. Perhaps the first official game should really be the 1873 one and the 1872 one should be subsumed into that page? There is a fair amount of info about this (and the four other early international games). This match is truly the beginning of international soccer and should not be subsumed into the 1872 game in an attempt to dismiss the evidence of where international soccer began. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theonesh (talk • contribs) 21:03, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• Whilst I agree that the FA was the only FA in the world at the time, thus making the 'two sides selected by two seperate football associations' model inappropriate, this doesn't change the fact that the '72 game is the first international match recognised by FIFA, the only body with the right to judge what is and isn't an official game. The '72 match was organised by two seperate bodies, with Queen's Park effectively taking on the role that the SFA would later follow. The '70 game was organised by one body as representative teams from players within it; that's not an international game as recognised by FIFA.
• This reduces the 1870 match to a representative game between English and Scottish teams. This is clearly important in the development of international football and deserves some information, but at the moment the info in this article is equal (if not more factually correct) than the current stub article.
• If the 1870 article were significantly improved, then I wouldn't make this request, and a merger doesn't remove the possibility of expanding it at some stage; at the moment, however, the 1870 article is stubby, factually incorrect and repeats information that has long been in this article. Pretty Green (talk) 07:25, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I have worked on this page and have added quite a lot of info. There is a lot of info out there about these early games and I think it would be a shame to ignore it. I am happy to improve it further and add more, but I do not want to do so whilst it is under threat of being wiped. It is a lot of work typing out of these old newspapers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kinigi (talk • contribs) 20:12, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, page much improved. But I think that the status of each of these games should be spelt out clearer and the 1870 games should not be overstated. The 1870 games are undoubtedly significant, but if FIFA says the 1872 game was the first international, it's not up to Wikipedia to quibble. FIFA are the ultimate authority, end of story. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm happy to see that the page has been improved, I think we can remove the merge tag (though I still wouldn't particularly give the games their own article if it was up to me, but since it's there...). --Pretty Green (talk) 09:01, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Factual inaccuracies

This article does not make any mention of the two following facts (or perhaps they have been deleted):

Alcock's 1870 and 1871 efforts to find players from Scotland for a soccer match

The presence in one of the 1871 games of Smith, from Queen's park FC

These should be included. The current introduction ignores what came before in a remarkable way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kinigi (talk • contribs) 22:48, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The score was 1-1.

Full stop. 2A00:23C4:BC15:2F01:AD57:88B6:4EE7:5F94 (talk) 13:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

When was the first match between teams from two different sovereign nations?

Just wondering, since these two teams are part of two countries that makes up one sovereign nation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.56.119 (talk) 05:26, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

• Probably Urugway vs Argentina in 1901, but I'm not sure 89.67.83.208 (talk) 19:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I just came here from the main page. I have one thing to say:

First """"""""""international"""""""""" football match. Riiiiiiight. BirdValiant (talk) 03:28, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Both Scotland and England had national football teams hence the first inter-national match was this one.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Barbados v Grenada (1994) - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 00:21, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

so many forwards and 0-0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.185.128.19 (talk) 11:31, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 24 August 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved (non-admin closure) ~SS49~ {talk} 15:10, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

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1872 Scotland vs England football match → 1872 Scotland v England football match – This page needs to be moved for consistent naming conventions with other articles about international association football matches. (i.e. 1876 Scotland v Wales football match, 1949 England v Ireland football match, 2013 Gibraltar v Slovakia football match, etc.). KingSkyLord (Talk page | Contributions) 20:38, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 18:47, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nom. GiantSnowman 18:50, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Club affiliations of players

The article currently states that all 11 Scottish players played for Queen's Park, citing a page on the BBC website. According to the very detailed contemporary report in the North British Daily Mail, this is not quite true. The following players are given as playing for clubs other than Queen's Park:

• William Kerr: Granville
• James Smith: South Norwood
• Robert Smith: South Norwood

This is supported by the Wikipedia page for James Smith, which shows him at South Norwood from 1870 onwards. It also suggests that Charles Clegg should be listed as playing for Sheffield FC rather than Sheffield Wednesday, and that Kirke-Smith represented Oxford rather than Cambridge University. Grover cleveland (talk) 08:35, 20 December 2019 (UTC)