Talk:1913 European Bandy Championships

Organiser

I wrote an e-mail to the IIHF trying to find out more about the championship, and Martin Merk fra the IIHF answered: "We are not aware of any bandy championships organized by the IIHF (respectively LIHG as our organization was called then). We don’t have any documents of such an event and there’s also no indication in the congress minutes from this era that the IIHF assigned, organized or sanctioned such an event."

So the event was probably NOT organized by the IIHF.

79.170.128.150 11:53, 5 February 2014‎

That's interesting. Perhaps the Swiss hosts were the organisers? I really wish someone would make an effort to try to research the first decades of bandy. I think there would be a lot of interesting facts to find. Boot Blues (talk) 17:41, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Austria-Hungary or Austria?

According to this Russian source [1] (already mentioned in this article), Austria took part in this tournament, not Austria-Hungary. So what was it? Since Bohemia (which is these circumstances perhapd were the full Lands of the Bohemian Crown, aproximately present day Czech Republic) at the time was a member of the Ligue International de Hockey sur Glace in its own right, despite being part of Austria-Hungary, I imagine the Austrian team could very well have been a team for just the nukleous Austria, i.e. the west-central German-speaking part of Cisleithania. Boot Blues (talk) 17:34, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

It's an interesting question you're raising. I wonder who could find an answer. If your suggestion is right, we should probably move Austria-Hungary national bandy team to a new title, just mentioning Austria. Snowsuit Wearer (talk|contribs) 21:50, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

For future reference, the two accounts above are socks of the same blocked editor. Dekimasuよ! 21:18, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Did it ever happen?

His source [2] seems to prove that the dubious event had been a fake. --AlsterH₂O (talk) 18:06, 6 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, the author is anonymous himself and says that "prominent hockey historians" have researched the matter but gives no names as to who these prominent hockey historians might be. So did it happen? I don't know. Some sources still seem to indicate it did. Snowsuit Wearer (talk|contribs) 20:48, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

There is no source, there's just an anonymous claim. It is probably just a made up story, this that some researchers hadn't found anything. As I commented at talk:Bandy: this is not serious. I don't believe it never happened, not just because of this. Bandy Hoppsan (talk) 13:34, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

For future reference, the two accounts above are socks of the same blocked editor. Dekimasuよ! 21:18, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

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Page Title/article content needs to be changed

Hi - there has been some research by Russians, who have uncovered the fact that this was not in fact a European Championship, and it was not in Davos, and England did not win it! The "World Championship" (as it was called, despite having only European participants), was played between 21-23 February 1913 in Saint-Moritz, Switzerland, and was played by club teams (not national teams). It has mistakenly been recorded as an ice hockey tournament, but newspapers of the time mention that it was a bandy tournament.

There were 5 participants: Berliner Schlittschuhclub (Germany) Princes Ice Hockey Club (England) Club des Patineurs (France) Slavia Praha (Bohemia) Switzerland

Berliner won 3 of their 4 games to take the championship on goal difference.

RESULTS: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIHG-Meisterschaft_1913

STANDINGS 1. Berliner 6pts (24-5) 2. Princes 6pts (14-3) 3. Club des Patineurs 6pts (12-6) 4. Slavia 2pts (5:13) 5. Switzerland 0pts (3:31)

http://www.kuzbassbandyclub.ru/mainnews/archive/2502--lr-&xid=17259,15700022,15700186,15700191,15700248&usg=ALkJrhjSRXcUpIQ00YMr4aeDCakKqepURw

It is also mentioned in this article that there was a European Bandy Championship in 1904 (for 3 club teams), and the final table is given, and also seemingly a European Championship for 3 nations in 1914 in Germany (Germany, Belgium, Bohemia), with results being Bohemia 9-1 Belgium, Germany 4-1 Belgium and Germany 0-2 Bohemia.

Mcruic (talk) 22:31, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

@Mcruic, what stops you from making the changes? It seems you have reliable sources. Bandy långe (talk) 00:38, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

One 'source' seems to be Wikipedia but in German, the other one the homepage of a Russian bandy club of which I cannot deem the reliability. However, there are sources at the German Wikipedia page. Are those reliable enough? As we see the human society is liquid, we are all just running with the flow (talk) 13:05, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 27 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: procedural close. The target is occupied by another article, so this would appear to be a case for a merge discussion, not a move. Dekimasuよ! 21:16, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

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1913 European Bandy Championships → 1913 LIHG Championship – The 1913 LIHG Championship was organised by the LIHG (ice hockey) but was played as a bandy tournament - the 1913 European Bandy Championship (previously thought to be fictional) is actually the same thing as the 1913 LIHG Championship - a bandy tournament played under the auspices of an ice hockey organisation. The teams listed were not national teams, but instead club teams (with the exception of the hosts, Switzerland). The following link provides all the resources for this, including Dutch reports of the time referencing it as a bandy tournament: http://www.kuzbassbandyclub.ru/mainnews/archive/2502--lr-&xid=17259,15700022,15700186,15700191,15700248&usg=ALkJrhjSRXcUpIQ00YMr4aeDCakKqepURw In addition, all results are reported in an Austrian newspaper of the time: http://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno?aid=ios&datum=19130308&seite=9&zoom=48

They are reported as an ice hockey tournament, but bandy/hockey were used interchangeably at that time. Mcruic (talk) 13:22, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Changes to the article

There has been significant changes to this article, but this shoudl also be reflected in other articles. It seems this championship was not for national teams, according to what is now stated in this article, but then changes also should be made to other articles. Look through the main article on the sport bandy and see what changes ought to be made. Do you need help? Please ask for help and I think many people are ready to give a hand. Bandyman Desire (talk) 21:03, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Merge with 1913 LIHG Championship?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was... not to merge the articles, but make sure that the text in this article makes clear that it is not certain that the 1913 European Bandy Championships tournament ever happened and that the information could be confused with actual information about the 1913 LIHG tournament. As we see the human society is liquid, we are all just running with the flow (talk) 08:12, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

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Should this be merged with 1913 LIHG Championship, as seems to have been suggested above but not really discussed or decided upon? Were these the same tournament?  : As we see the human society is liquid, we are all just running with the flow (talk) 16:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

It was an Ice Hockey tournament, run by an Ice hockey organization, with Ice Hockey teams, there needs to be some discussion that establishes that bandy was indeed played. Famous Ice hockey players were participants [3]. The cited source from the previous discussion makes some significant leaps of logic and only provides evidence that the Dutch may have interchangeably used the terms 'bandy' and 'ice hockey'. It is arguing that the details that the IIHF had in its published materials for an Ice Hockey tournament were correct and that the details published from bandy sources were utter nonsense. Going to great lengths, in 2015, to establish that the IIHF had the correct details available since 2005, without mentioning the IIHF, seems a little suspect. The only source trying to substantiate a '1913 European Bandy Championships' at all is not a reliable source. An AFD would be more suitable than a merge discussion.18abruce (talk) 21:37, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I have gone through the contemporary press for every European country from 1913. This tournament never happened. There was zero mention of it in any newspaper. It first came up in a bandy history book published in the 1970s, which cited no sources for the information. A redirect to Four nation bandy tournament in 2014, which was played as a 100th anniversary “celebration” of the mythical tournament could be a good idea. Another option would be explaining that it was never contested, despite achieving some level of relevance in recent times. --Hockeyben ^{(talk - contribs)} 20:00, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

May I ask what 'an AFD' is in these circumstances?

I looked at the history page for this article. If it is true that this tournament "never happened", it is weird that the article has been around for years without anyone addressing this matter fully. I can see that there have been discussions about it before on this page, but the article is still around anyway. It is as if noone has really wanted to take care of the issue.

I don't know much about the subject, but I do know that the rules of bandy and ice hockey are said to have been more similar in the early days and that some impromptu games were played to rules mixed between the two and ice hockey as a sport was not really stablished in Europe before the 1920s. It is impressive to go through lots and lots of newspapers in many different languages. The book from the 1970s, who wrote it and what was it called? What could be the reason for an author to make a tournament up like this? How come official pages of international sports authorities still refer to the tournament if it actually never happened? I feel baffled.  ; As we see the human society is liquid, we are all just running with the flow (talk) 15:16, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

Anyway, regardless of what is said in the article now and if it was ice hockey or bandy which was played – according to some sources, bandy used to be called hockey or even ice hockey back in the day, even if it was not the ice hockey with smaller rink we know by that name now – I think that even if this article should be deleted or redirected or whatever, I think there is reason to address the issue of this myth anyway, since it seems to be so persistent. How should Wikipedia write about it?  ; As we see the human society is liquid, we are all just running with the flow (talk) 10:37, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I asked at the Wikipedia:Teahouse and got an interesting answer about how to deal with questions of factoids and historical events which may or may not have taken place. Do you agree with what is said there?

@User:Hockeyben, how do you deem the reliability of the sources given at de:LIHG-Meisterschaft_1913 ? Is that ice hockey, not bandy?  ; As we see the human society is liquid, we are all just running with the flow (talk) 13:01, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

The book which the 1913 European Bandy Championship was mentioned in was Bandy genom åren, published in 1975 by Åke Dunér. The author provided no sources to back up his claims. I believe he got the Bandy Championship confused with the 1913 LIHG Championship (an ice hockey tournament), which was also played in St. Moritz. It seems his writings were the origin of the legend surrounding the 1913 bandy tournament, which the bandy federation ran with, without actually researching themselves. I generally agree with what was said at the Teahouse. This definitely isn't a hoax. It's a tough situation to handle.

The sources surrounding the 1913 LIHG Championship are good and that tournament without a doubt did take place. --Hockeyben ^{(talk - contribs)} 19:04, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

According to this Russian source there was never a European Bandy Championships instead the sources confused it with the 1913 LIHG Championship. The source mentioned that a researcher travelled to Davos and was not able to find any sources for a Bandy Championship. If I search "Bandy*" at the Swiss newspaper archive a found no mentioning of a European Championships . 🤾‍♂️ Malo95 (talk) 15:05, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Have you searched for "Hockey" in that archive too? Bandy was often called hockey, hockey on the ice or even ice hockey back then, at least according to some sources.  ; As we see the human society is liquid, we are all just running with the flow (talk) 11:14, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

I have rewritten parts of this article now, reflecting the fact that it likely never happened. Do you think this is sufficient? Could the article stay as it is now (or with perhaps minor changes)?  ; As we see the human society is liquid, we are all just running with the flow (talk) 11:46, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

As the article is written now, I see no reason for a merge. It would be good if more sources could be added. Pepparkaksgubbe (talk) 03:28, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

It looks very good to me. Well done! --Hockeyben ^{(talk - contribs)} 05:56, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

There are contemporary source

This tournament is mentioned at Finnish sport magazine Finskt idrottsblad 28.2. 1913. Belgia won, then Bohemia, Germany and Austria. England did not played at competition. It was played at the end of the january in Munich.

https://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikakausi/binding/860496?page=10 213.28.225.193 (talk) 14:51, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your nice find.

In the news articles of the Münchner neuste Nachrichten they say it's ice hockey and not Bandy.

At the final article from 28 January its written:

• Oesterreich war sehr schwach. ... Gemeinsam war allen Spielern der Mannschaft das mangelhafte Heben der Scheibe, da kraftvoll ausgeführt die Angriffe öffnet. Diese Schwächen werden verzeihlich, wenn man hört, dass Oesteriech fürher Bandy (mit dem Ball) spielte und erst kurze Zeit sich dem kanadischen Spiel mit der Scheibe widmete.
• Austria was very weak. ... What all of the team's players had in common was the poor lifting of the puck, as when done powerfully it opens up the attacks. These weaknesses become forgivable when you hear that Oesteriech used to play bandy (with the ball) and only devoted himself to the Canadian game with the puck for a short time.

@As we see the human society is liquid, we are all just running with the flow: what will we do with this new information? 🤾‍♂️ Malo95 (talk) 16:28, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the double answer. I found the Wikipedia article to this Munich tournament: 1913 Ice Hockey European Championship

This was the official IIHF championship. 🤾‍♂️ Malo95 (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

VÄRLDSMÄSTERSKAPET I BANDY, som tidigare var afsedt att försiggå i Stockholm vid Nordiska spelen, har man numera beslutit förlägga till Davos eller S:t Moritz i Schweiz.

THE WORLD BANDY CHAMPIONSHIP, which was previously intended to take place in Stockholm at the Nordic Games, has now been decided to move to Davos or St. Moritz in Switzerland.

https://digi.kansalliskirjasto.fi/aikakausi/binding/860491?page=10 109.240.25.174 (talk) 17:14, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

https://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno?aid=ios&datum=19130308&seite=9&zoom=48

The claims that there were 1913 bandy championship tournament are based to true existent tournament. But was that bandy or ice hockey? 109.240.25.174 (talk) 04:58, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

This is the 1913 LIHG Championship. And in der First sentence is written: ...Eishockey mit der Scheibe... / ... ice hockey with the puck. Therefore this tournament is clearly no bandy. 🤾‍♂️ Malo95 (talk) 18:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

At the time, ice hockey and bandy was sometimes seen as variants of the same sport. In Sweden, bandy was sometimes played with a puck in the first decade of the 20th Century. I don't think the new sources is enough to be sure there was any bandy championship played in Switzerland in 1913. -As we see the human society is liquid, we are all just running with the flow (talk) 14:48, 6 September 2024 (UTC)