Talk:1958 FIFA World Cup qualification (AFC/CAF–UEFA play-off)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) 09:59, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Comments

• Not sure the fair use justification for the programme cover is sufficient. "to serve as the primary means of visual identification at the top of the article dedicated to the work in question." the article is not about the work, it's about the football match. And it's particularly questionable here whether the front cover a programme which literally just lists the team names with a Wales crest in any way. Can we, hand on heart, claim this image meets "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding."? Every single detail on that image is included in the article already.

I'm terrible with licensing, so I'm a little unsure of what is permissable in these situations. However, I was following the lines of the numerous other programmes we have here, such as the ones used in 1978 FA Cup Final, 1927 FA Cup Final etc. Is this not along the same lines? Kosack (talk) 09:04, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the usage is the same as those articles, and I'm now questioning if it's legitimate. NFCC#8 is what I'm noting above, do we really think if the programme image wasn't there, our readers would understand the article less? I'm thinking about getting rid of all programme images from all the articles I've been pushing around to GA and FA. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 09:11, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

If it needs to be removed, I'm happy to do so. Kosack (talk) 19:26, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

I think this a much wider problem. I'm hoping there'll shortly be an RFC relating to either changing the NFCC#8 or one which results in the removal of all such images which violate the spirit of FUR. In the meantime, I'm content to just let it be, as you've noted there are dozens/hundreds/thousands of precedents, but I felt it should be mentioned here as not to so would be remiss of a good reviewer. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:33, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• Also interesting that the Wales crest on the programme is different from the one used in the infobox!

  The crest on the programme is the badge of the Football Association of Wales, the flag in the infobox was the Welsh flag between 1953 and 1959. Kosack (talk) 09:04, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• "1958 FIFA World Cup CAF/AFC–UEFA qualification play-off " I don't like and we shouldn't encourage partially linked bold text. I would avoid bold alogether and perhaps just go for something like "The CAF/AFC–UEFA qualification play-off for the 1958 FIFA World Cup ..." Add to that it's a sea of blue... - Reworded
• The opening sentence doesn't tell us what the sport is. - Added
• " Wales were drawn .. which Wales won" repetitive for Wales.

• Tried to reword by splitting up the sentence but it's a little awkward to avoid. Kosack (talk) 09:13, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• "scoreline with Allchurch scoring" scoreline/scoring. - Reworded
• "Manager Jimmy Murphy was" you mentioned two other teams since Wales so it's ambiguous who Murphy managed. - Added
• "enjoyed a strong start after " not particularly encyclopedic in tone. - Reworded
• "was East German's first " missing a y. - Fixed
• "and an outcry from the Welsh media " surely the manager would have replaced the injured players without a "media outcry"?

• Remarkably, no. I imagine Murphy would have requested it, but the FAW was so stringent with its budget that they attempted to restrict player selection to a remarkable level and it was the media attention that eventually put the pressure on. Kosack (talk) 09:13, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• Link own goal, corner, etc etc. - Added
• "spot to the 1958 FIFA World Cup finals" over linked. - Removed
• "against Turkey. However, Turkey" repetitive. - Reworded
• What was the upheaval in Indonesia? Was it related to Guided Democracy in Indonesia

  The source doesn't elaborate unfortunately so I can't say with any confidence if that was it. Kosack (talk) 12:28, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• "subsequently chose to withdraw" -> "subsequently withdrew". - Reworded
• "to the final round.[10][12] In the final round" repetitive. - Reworded
• "many teams qualified for " would go better as "many teams had qualified for " - Reworded
• We aren't really told what UEFA, FIFA, NAFC/CCCF, nor CONMEBOL mean.

  I've added in brief clarification to these uses. Let me know if you think they need more. Kosack (talk) 12:28, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• "A blunder in preparation" while I love term, I'm not convinced by how encyclopedic in tone it really is. - Reworded
• "train with. As a result, the team were limited to physical training " train/training repeat. - Reworded
• "Nevertheless, Wales were heavy favourites ahead of the tie" I know what you're saying but I doubt the lack of a training ball would have had any impact on their likelihood of winning...

  I've removed nevertheless to reduce the emphasis on the ball point. Kosack (talk) 12:28, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• "around 80 degrees" I imagine you mean F so say that and convert. - Added
• Could link List of ambassadors of the United Kingdom to Israel. - Added
• "20 yards out" convert. - Added
• Goal time, prose differs from summary. - Fixed
• Need to link area, free kick etc. '- Added*
• " when John Charles went" over linked. - Removed
• "The victory was the first time Wales had won a match outside the United Kingdom.[21]" Was Ireland considered part of the UK in 1928?

  Wales always played Ireland in Belfast prior to this, which would be part of the United Kingdom. Kosack (talk) 12:32, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• Where is Moshe Varon referenced? - Added
• Any of the red linked Israeli players have an article at Hebrew Wikipedia which you could use the {{ill}} template for?

  Normally I would have no issue, but with the variations in spelling of names the Israeli side seems to have, finding those players in Hebrew would be a needle in a haystack. Kosack (talk) 14:14, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

• "frequent use... of " -> "frequent use ... of " with a non-breaking space. - Added
• "Wales' victory remains the only ..." I know it's unlikely to change, but these kinds of statements need something like {{as of}}. - Added
• Aftermath could use some comments on perhaps any subsequent qualification, it's entirely bereft right now of anything on Israel. - Added
• Ref 16 links BBC Sport but none of the others seem to be linked. - Removed
• Ref 25 doesn't italicise BBC Sport. - Fixed
• Ref 25 also needs an en-dash rather than a spaced hyphen. - Fixed
• Use modern ISBNs by converting from the isbn.org website. - Done
• Ref 10 seems to basically say FIFA three times, I'd just stick with FIFA as publisher and lose the others. - Done

That's all I have, so it's on hold. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 13:48, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks for the review The Rambling Man, I've responded to everything above. Let me know what you think. Kosack (talk) 19:26, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

  Kosack I'll try to take a look tomorrow, thanks for your hard work. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 21:33, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I'm reasonably happy with the article now, and will promote it. Stay tuned for more on the "programme image issue" in the near future! Cheers. The Rambling Man (Stay indoors, stay safe!!!!) 08:12, 28 May 2020 (UTC)