Talk:Nafusa Mountains campaign/Archive 1

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Some things...

First point: The talk pages for the battles of Gharyan and Az Zintan should be merged here.

Second point: "Fighting" seems to be a very watered-down and vague word. Makes me think of low-level violence, not military engagements. Is there a better term we could use? ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 02:04, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

If you could move the talk pages to this one that would be great. I simply forgot about doing that, however I don't know how to move two discussion pages into one personally. Also, I used the term fighting because one editor objected to the use of the term Battle of or for because nobody in the media was using those terms. Do you have any suggestions? EkoGraf (talk) 15:20, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Talk-page merges are generally done by admins, as mere cut-and-paste moves wreak havoc on revision histories. I'll put in a request soon.

As for a better word, I would prefer "battles". I recognise the concern brought up by the editor, but the conflict here is organised enough to be called "battles", for reasons of preciseness and convenience. As for RSes using such terms, I would like to point out that this region is not receiving much coverage at all in western news media. Refugees from these mountain towns are complaining that "no one is interested in this region, which is suffering in silence". ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 16:27, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

It would be better Battle of Nafusa Mountains. It's true that the geographical zone (and the period of time) ist very large, but it is similiar than the Battle of England. A set of differents locations to name a battle. Thor8 (talk) 11:38, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

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The result of the move request was: page moved by User:Thor8. Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 23:07, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

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2011 Fighting in the Nafusa Mountains → Battles of the Nafusa Mountains – Multiple battles in the Nafusa Mountains, each too small to have their own article, but notable as a group. Self-explanatory. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:22, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support move to Battle of Nafusa Mountains. EkoGraf (talk) 15:09, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support(Off-Topic What on earth is 'the battle of England'?) Personally would go for Nafusa Mountain Campaign, but both are better than the current title KP-TheSpectre (talk) 23:05, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

"Campaign" sounds a little formal for these small battles. The reason this article is named as it currently is is that even "battles" was feared to be too intense a wording. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:25, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support Make more sense if it was battle rather than fighting. Soldier198 (talk) 02:04, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

• Comment It's more than one battle though, isn't it? It's the battles of Gharyan, Yefren, Zintan, etc. I'm not familiar with military terminology, but the battles of Brega and Ajdabiya each have their own page, rather than being called the Brega-Ajdabiya Campaign or whatever. - Dalta (talk) 16:26, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

The battles in Cyrenaica are bigger and have much more news coverage. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 20:17, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support, though would prefer, as an alternative to "campaign", which I agree sounds a bit formal for this, perhaps a Nafusa Mountain Front or Theater (though the latter might also be too formal). There's little enough information on each battle that we can probably just have the one article and have it discuss the various small battles here. If I may additionally suggest creating a Cyrenaica Front or similarly named article for those battles, that might help with overall organization methinks. 140.247.145.186 (talk) 12:36, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

• Support athought Nafusa Mountain Campaign would be more proper term. --EllsworthSK (talk) 22:29, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Comment Sorry Lothar von Richthofen, in spanish we say Batalla de Inglaterra. I see that you say Batalla de Bretaña (Battle of Britain). I move the article. Thor8 (talk) 09:41, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Yafran reports

"On 1 May, a caller on Al Jazeera said that the city of Zintan came under attack from Grad missiles the previous day, and pro-Gaddafi forces attempted to enter the town. NATO planes could be heard overhead.[66] The next day, it was reported that rebels in the town of Yafran were under heavy siege and running out of vital supplies,[67] contradicting earlier reports of the town's capture by loyalist forces" - no contradiction here, as these reports clearly came from the people who left the town some days earlier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.45.147.235 (talk) 21:49, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Read the source and reassess your statement: [1]. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 22:17, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Source: "arrived with her family two days ago at a refugee camp in the Tunisian border town of Dehiba after fleeing Yafran", "he had crossed into Tunisia on Sunday after coming from Yafran", no more specific dates. This means these people most likely left Yafran in the middle of the last week. 77.45.242.162 (talk) 17:37, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

"Town of Yafran under siege by government forces" — nothing said about it having ever fallen. You're just speculating. We report what the sources say. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 01:04, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Rebel spokesman admitting loss of Yafran [2] 77.45.244.180 (talk) 17:14, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that when it came out. Problem is, more recent reports indicate that Yafran may not have fallen after all. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 21:28, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

We´re seeing once again the same thing, from what I was able to figure out rebels are saying that part of Yefren is controled by loyalist forces which includes city hospital turned to CnC center while rest of the town and Qualla is controled by rebels, plus recently they claim that Kikla has been captured by rebels. That source about Yefren beeing captured by rebel forces seems strange as not even CNN which is only station together with Al Jazeera who have journalists on the ground has not reported such thing. Nor have reuters which is quoted as source for that article. --EllsworthSK (talk) 22:44, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:17, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

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Battles of the Nafusa Mountains → 2011 Nafusa Mountains Campaign – Simply put, the current name is wrong...or bad...or whatever. In any case, a lot of reporters recently have started using the term campaign in their covering of the fighting in the mountains by saying Gaddafi's campaign or Rebel campaign, dependeing on whom they are reporting on. EkoGraf (talk) 04:03, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support per nom. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:16, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support Its a campaign went their are multiple battles taking place. 72.91.168.76 (talk) 17:08, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
• Support per nom. —Nightstallion 08:05, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Finding small towns on the map

Article says: "On 15 June, rebels were already in control of previously contested Zawiet al-Baqool, town 20km from Az Zintan. Pro-Gaddafi positions on outskirt of town were deserted and loyalists left behind clothes, shoes and ammunition. Rebels also claimed that after capture of town they were moving to loyalists held town of Lawania and Ghanymma.". 3 towns mentioned in this addition - Zawiet al-Baqool, Lawania and Ghanymma - are nowhere to be found on the map (e.g. Google Maps) and it isn't said whether they are west, east, south or north of Az Zintan. It is confusing as it seems to imply that Az Zintan wasn't in rebels' hands on 15 June.

Somebody clarify this. --78.0.235.242 (talk) 09:39, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Nothing like that is implicated there. Its written that it is 20km east of Zintan and Google Maps do not have even Tawargha there. Those towns are small towns between Zintan and Yefren (in vicinity of Rayayna)which were taken during same offensive where Rayayna has fallen and rebels took control of whole southern highway between Yefren and Zintan. --EllsworthSK (talk) 10:43, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Google Maps has pretty spotty coverage of these mountains, though they have been improving as the conflict progresses. For instance, I remember when Galaa and Rujban weren't on the map, but now they are. I am very confused as to how anything there implies that Zintan wasn't rebel-held.

Tawargha is I think labelled in its old Italian name "Gioda", given its placement on the map. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 14:32, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I've been poking around on the internet for a while to find maps that depict these towns. Thus far I have found this map, which shows Zawiat al-Baqul (bottom left corner, right above the '6') as southwest of Yafran. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 15:56, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for finding the map. However, it's only partly useful for finding info on the Nafusa Mountains. In this case, I think Wikimapia can be of more help. Follow the link, and you'll see both "Zawyat Albagul" and "Aweeneya" (possibly the Lawinia from above). And on a related note, watch how Wikimapia places al Qualaa on the plain to the south-east of Yafren (partly confirmed by notes on Google Maps photos from the area). Same discrepancies regarding placement of Ghezayah, which Wikimapia is placing along the northern plains road and not on the hill road west of Nalut. Someone who knows the real truth on this?--Paracel63 (talk) 21:25, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Al-Qawalish (west or east?)

Now it seems Al-Qawalish (Al-Gawaleesh) has been taken by the opposition. Which one? There is a western part and an eastern part, more than 5 kms apart, as they are separated by a canyon and a detour of the mountains road south of that canyon.--Paracel63 (talk) 15:04, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

I put a parenthesis and a clarify-flag to recent report around Al-Qawalish. There seems to be conflicting reports about which part of the town that has changed hands. On Twitter, optimistic voices talk of attacks on Al-Asabeah, just to the east of the eastern half of town. While talks and videos from the earlier frontline seem to suggest that the water-tower was just north of _west_ Qawalish (i e to the south of Kikla). Also, geopositioning on (amongst others) libyafeb17.com, placse the recently discovered minefields in the _west_ part of town. Quite mystifying, i e.--Paracel63 (talk) 12:29, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Reports from Reuters and other journalists on ground are that regime fighters retreated to Miskah and Al Asabeah meaning that rebels captured both parts. --EllsworthSK (talk) 13:40, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. However, west and east Al-Qawalish are so far apart, they should be hard to conquer in one go. And Miskah is quite close to eastern Al-Qawalish, making securing the gains of utmost importance.--Paracel63 (talk) 20:32, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

This picture maybe would be helpful http://twitpic.com/5mkvdn — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.63.231.196 (talk) 13:50, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks. Wikimapia has a measuring tool that makes measuring easier. If distance on road sign is to Al-Gharyan proper, this is definitely east of the canyon.--Paracel63 (talk) 20:32, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Any chance of a map update?

The current map in this article is months out-of-date ...

Thanks! quota (talk) 08:02, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Map is regulary updated, if you have any request about its change you can ask for it here [[3]] Also map isnt outdated, it shows all rebel held territories quite correctly. --EllsworthSK (talk) 22:59, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Request for more pages

I'm going to create, if there are no objections, and if I have time, a new page called the Western Tripolitanian Campaign. At this point, while the Nafusa mountains campaign is clearly not finished Tiji, Al Josh and Gharyan, the campaign has now clearly expanded beyond the mountain. I'll create, leave for a few days and then merge some of the stuff from here into it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Grant bud (talk • contribs) 21:01, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. I suggest you enter everything since Bir Ghanam, as well as Msallata, into the new article. Seleucus (talk) 21:05, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Don't include Msallata; it is an unrelated local uprising, not part of a cohesive campaign. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 03:10, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

My suggestion is to call it the Western Tripolitanian Coastal Campaign, since it has moved from the mountains to the coast now. And include everything that is happening after Bir Ghanem onwards on the coast, like Zawiyah and the fighting at the border crossing into Tunisia today. EkoGraf (talk) 05:11, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

I think in this war there are clearly three fronts. The Misrata/Zliten/Tawargha front, the Nafusa Mountains/Zawiyah/Zuwarah front (it´s the same front, because the advance to Bir al Ghanam was made by the Rebels that were in the Nafusa Mountains; also if we put Nafusa Mountains front we´ll be excluding towns like Tiji, Bir Ayyad or Al Josh, that are in the plains) and the Goulf of Sidra front. I proposse to create articles for this fronts (maybe Misrata front, Western Tripoli font and Goulf of Sidra front or something similar). Each front may have battles with their own articles (the Goulf of Sidra, for example, will have the battles of Bin Jawad, Ras Lanuf, Brega, Ajdabiya, Benghazi, Brega-Ajdabiya, etc.). What do you think? --Ave César Filito (talk) 13:35, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

I like the idea except perhaps adding a page for the Desert Front which would include the East Libyan Desert Campaign and the Southern libyan Desert Campaign. Noneofyour (talk) 04:26, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it can be added. Maybe Southern Libyan Desert front? What do you think? --Ave César Filito (talk) 21:33, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Noneofyour (talk) 04:17, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

No, this is too complex. Just because we can make more umbrella articles doesn't mean we should. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 05:23, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Lothar. EkoGraf (talk) 20:03, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Nafusa Mountains Campaign over?

Seems to me that the rebels have managed to capture the mountain region except for a town here and there with the capture of Gharyan,Tiji, and Badr. Should the campaign be considered a rebel victory? Noneofyour (talk) 03:09, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I was just thinking the same thing. With the fall of Tiji, Badr, and I'm going to assume Al Jawsh, too, and all the battles being fought on the coast, it's probably just about over. The only place there are any reports of Gaddafi troops that I am aware of is in Asabaa, between Al Qwaleesh and Gharyan. Fovezer (talk) 03:29, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

So should we just consider this a Rebel Victory or shall we wait a bit to see how it plays out? Noneofyour (talk) 03:51, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

We'll give it a few days for the dust to settle and all rebel gains definitively confirmed by independent media. It's best not to leap to a hasty conclusion (though this seems to be pretty much over). ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk) 05:18, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree. 71.227.88.140 (talk) 05:29, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

New article?

This campaign is over and the rebel advances now continues with "2011 Libyan rebel coastal offensive" to the norh, but where should we write about other offensives such as to Mezda in the south? 90.141.39.25 (talk) 08:29, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

Nafusa Mountains vs. Nafusa Mountain

I think Nafusa Mountains is better. I haven`t seen Nafusa Mountain in any source. Opinions? --Ave César Filito (talk) 01:52, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Agree. EkoGraf (talk) 20:01, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Is Haji Usama aka Osama al-Juwali?

Or do I have a different "Zintan commander" in mind? It's just a little bit confusing since the former seemed to be well represented during the actual battles in the mountains, but this latter name I have not heard until Seif al Islam was captured.

But if they are the same person, would it not be appropriate to change the name in the "Commanders" box and link it to the new bio article? Jetpower45 (talk) 06:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)