Talk:2014 Hrushevsky Street protests
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Requested move
edit- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: article not moved Armbrust The Homunculus 00:01, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
2014 Hrushevskoho Street riots → Assault on Hrushevskoho Street – Change name to "assault" to match Ukrainian title. Use of "riot" not justified as the word "riot" is not used in mainstream media. "Riot" used primarily by Ukrainian and Russian government, yet has not been used by independant media. Use of the word "battle" also not justified as these are not organised forces. 77.99.142.38 (talk) 17:59, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- Riot conforms to English language use for articles of this nature. It's absolutely a riot. Assault is a bit ambiguous IMO. --Львівське (говорити) 18:02, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
- A Google News search for Kiev riot* shows The Guardian, the BBC News blog, Al Jazeera and the Wall Street Journal using the word "riot" (also RT, which has a pro-government bias). Many more reports do seem to have been using the word "protest". The New Straits Times uses the term "battle zone" [1], as does another Guardian story [2]. An AFP story in the South China Morning Post uses the words "battleground" and "stand-off" [3] and uses the spelling Grushevsky Street (same street?). —rybec 03:16, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- well battlezone or battleground or all that is just describing the scene, not what's happening (whereas 'riots' or 'protests' describes what the event is about). Grushevsky is a Russified version of the name that also alters the actual spelling. The street is Hrushevskyi Street, but the way the word cojugates it's pretty much Hrushevsky's Street' in English, which in Ukrainian is 'Hrushevskoho' --Львівське (говорити) 03:20, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Per Lvivske, assault is ambiguous. It begs the question of who is assaulting whom. 'Riot' has definitely usurped 'protest' in the majority of mass media outlets (aside from online media). To be honest, I'm uncertain as to which mainstream media the nominator subscribes. I haven't encountered the term 'assault' in headlines other than as individual assault charges, allegations, etc. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 06:08, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- well battlezone or battleground or all that is just describing the scene, not what's happening (whereas 'riots' or 'protests' describes what the event is about). Grushevsky is a Russified version of the name that also alters the actual spelling. The street is Hrushevskyi Street, but the way the word cojugates it's pretty much Hrushevsky's Street' in English, which in Ukrainian is 'Hrushevskoho' --Львівське (говорити) 03:20, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- A Google News search for Kiev riot* shows The Guardian, the BBC News blog, Al Jazeera and the Wall Street Journal using the word "riot" (also RT, which has a pro-government bias). Many more reports do seem to have been using the word "protest". The New Straits Times uses the term "battle zone" [1], as does another Guardian story [2]. An AFP story in the South China Morning Post uses the words "battleground" and "stand-off" [3] and uses the spelling Grushevsky Street (same street?). —rybec 03:16, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Would 2014 Kiev riots not be better? I'm failing to see much mention in the media of the Hrushevskoho Street riots. Ericoides (talk) 06:24, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- this article is just about the riots on hrushevskoho street and the rioting taking place outside dynamo stadium and thereabouts (there isnt much rioting elsewhere to speak of). It was a split from the Euromaidan article which covers all protests and acts in kiev as a whole. I only say this because I've been intentionally keeping non-street rioting content off of this page and leaving it on Euromaidan. I guess we could ask what others think...--Львівське (говорити) 06:28, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- I see, thanks for the clarification. Ericoides (talk) 06:48, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- this article is just about the riots on hrushevskoho street and the rioting taking place outside dynamo stadium and thereabouts (there isnt much rioting elsewhere to speak of). It was a split from the Euromaidan article which covers all protests and acts in kiev as a whole. I only say this because I've been intentionally keeping non-street rioting content off of this page and leaving it on Euromaidan. I guess we could ask what others think...--Львівське (говорити) 06:28, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Keep the current title. Article about the ongoing riots on Hrushevskoho Street only. There were another riots/protests in Kiev during Euromaidan, (see Vasylkiv terrorists case and 1 December 2013 Euromaidan riots). NickSt (talk) 11:26, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Keep the current title. I agree with the above.--DThomsen8 (talk) 13:21, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- Keep riots. Assault (or any other convolution thereof) is WP:POV and WP:OR. Wrong lexicon. Assault is mutually interchangeable with siege and other military/militant strategies. Using it as such would presume intent and a centrally organised military/militant movement. These are riots: the result of escalated civil unrest, not a revolutionary and premeditated coup d'état. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:39, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
- Keep the current title per excellent arguments of Iryna. — Yulia Romero • Talk to me! 00:46, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
Usage of the word "thug(s)"
editNot POV if you ask me and I strongly suspect that it was written with partisan opinion. I will be closely monitoring this page for the next few days and will remove any language I find similar to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2002:4647:AC04:0:21E:C2FF:FEAC:F52F (talk) 15:26, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- titushky is a synonym for the english word 'thugs'. These people are weilding baseball bats and destroying property for money. Does that not accurately, neutrally describe a thug? Would you prefer 'hired goons'?--Львівське (говорити) 15:28, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
And what do you call those who are throwing molotov cocktails? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2002:4647:AC04:0:21E:C2FF:FEAC:F52F (talk) 16:40, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- rioters. --Львівське (говорити) 17:02, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
I guess terms are a matter of subjection then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.82.188.161 (talk) 22:49, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
FWIW, the Kyiv Post uses titushky and thugs interchangeably it seems. --Львівське (говорити) 01:06, 31 January 2014 (UTC)
Deaths/Police sniper shot Serhiy Nigoyan
editMaterials referenced at the end of this sentence don't say that explicitly, so allegedly there's no proof for that. Marked as "citation needed", but suggest removal as doubtful and harmful.
- from the source which you apparently read, "the medical service Yevromaydanu reports that the shooting of protesters on Hrushevskoho by snipers who shot two men aged 30-35 years." --Львівське (говорити) 16:21, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
Please explain "Automaidan"
editI see "Automaidan" mentioned both here and in Euromaidan, but it's not wikilinked or explained - please fix. Wnt (talk) 16:11, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
- you're right, might be good for someone to make a page on it. What it is is a section of the protests where they operate in a motorcade/convoy and will block streets or other things with their cars in protest --Львівське (говорити) 16:17, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
Slava Ukraini from reddit
editI've spent so much time glued to my computer (mainly Spilno and Euromajdan) I thought I'd let you guys know. It's all over the place on the news subreddits. Alkidonian (talk) 01:59, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
Inappropriate Photo
editThe photo, which appears on the front page, seems inappropriate for a neutral source of information. It looks as if it is being used for propaganda and promoting anarchist groups. Not only does it look staged, it appears to appeal to specific interest groups and seems to be from an unprofessional and sensationalist point-of-view. It doesn't show a clear view of the situation or the unraveling civil unrest, it could be a soccer riot or the set of a action film.50.124.198.11 (talk) 16:35, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- i thought it looked cool and the fires have been the most notable part of the riots, so it seems appropriate. Also, the 1:3 ratio didn't hurt.--Львівське (говорити) 17:02, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- A photo with police clashing with rioters or the aftermath shown would be more appropriate for this encyclopedic setting. Looking "cool" is not a prerequisite for the intention of keeping people informed. It also degrades the seriousness of the situation as it appears to be self-promotion for the photographer and individual represented.50.124.198.11 (talk) 18:06, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- i was obviously being glib when i said i picked it because it was 'cool' - like i said, it showed rioting, fire, etc. you're free to suggest an alternative here and we can hash it out --Львівське (говорити) 18:11, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- I wish there was a better photo, but if it's the best we can do, fine. It just seems corny and exploitative of the situation.50.124.198.11 (talk) 04:34, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
- I replaced it with the front page image from Anti-protest laws in Ukraine. Hope everyone is satisfied with the change. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 21:22, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- no complaint from me. I think we (I) can make a cool collage once the dust settles and this is over.--Львівське (говорити) 21:28, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- I replaced it with the front page image from Anti-protest laws in Ukraine. Hope everyone is satisfied with the change. Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 21:22, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- I wish there was a better photo, but if it's the best we can do, fine. It just seems corny and exploitative of the situation.50.124.198.11 (talk) 04:34, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
- i was obviously being glib when i said i picked it because it was 'cool' - like i said, it showed rioting, fire, etc. you're free to suggest an alternative here and we can hash it out --Львівське (говорити) 18:11, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- A photo with police clashing with rioters or the aftermath shown would be more appropriate for this encyclopedic setting. Looking "cool" is not a prerequisite for the intention of keeping people informed. It also degrades the seriousness of the situation as it appears to be self-promotion for the photographer and individual represented.50.124.198.11 (talk) 18:06, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
- i thought it looked cool and the fires have been the most notable part of the riots, so it seems appropriate. Also, the 1:3 ratio didn't hurt.--Львівське (говорити) 17:02, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Revert needed
editI'm wondering if someone can revert this article to the latest version by User:Lvivske since an anonymous editor just wreck havoc the whole article. Namely reference 1 and removed all of the icons that I established for our readers to see the difference.--Mishae (talk) 02:10, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- just click Restore This Version --Львівське (говорити) 02:48, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hmm, I don't have revert rights and due to it can't do undo.--Mishae (talk) 03:30, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- I've done it on your behalf but without regard for the intermediary edits that were done not by the IP. Not sure entirely what you had a problem with but you have a better eye for proper references than I.--Львівське (говорити) 03:42, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Hmm, I don't have revert rights and due to it can't do undo.--Mishae (talk) 03:30, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- just click Restore This Version --Львівське (говорити) 02:48, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
"sub-zero temperatures"
editFahrenheit, or Celsius? If Celsius, maybe rephrase as "sub-freezing", so that it's clear to all readers. If Fahrenheit, the problem's a little harder; maybe find out the actual temperature, if it's in the sources, and report it in both scales. --Trovatore (talk) 06:44, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- both, technically.--Львівське (говорити) 06:46, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Well, in that case, it's Fahrenheit, because 0 deg F is colder than 0 deg C. So anyone want to take a stab at reporting the actual situation? It's not the most critical thing in the world, but it would be nice if readers who use Celsius didn't come away thinking, "oh, that's not so bad". --Trovatore (talk) 06:50, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed but in the absence of hard data we should simply use Celsius terminology as it is the most widely understood in the English-speaking world and is used in Ukraine. Over the course of a couple of months, there have been days with a temperature above 0 deg F so I think it's enough to say below 0 deg C. As it relates to the use of water cannons by police forces, it is enough to know that the temperature is below freezing. I've changed "sub-zero" to "sub-freezing". Stephen J Sharpe (talk) 17:21, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
- Well, in that case, it's Fahrenheit, because 0 deg F is colder than 0 deg C. So anyone want to take a stab at reporting the actual situation? It's not the most critical thing in the world, but it would be nice if readers who use Celsius didn't come away thinking, "oh, that's not so bad". --Trovatore (talk) 06:50, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
Requested move (22 February 2014)
edit- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was moved to 2014 Hrushevskoho protests by Hahc21. --BDD (talk) 16:06, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
2014 Hrushevskoho Street riots → 2014 Hrushevskoho Street clashes – I feel calling them "riots" is a bit misleading and not the most common description of the situation. This description is more neutral and generic. Relisted Hot Stop talk-contribs 04:26, 11 March 2014 (UTC) --Relisted. Armbrust The Homunculus 23:50, 1 March 2014 (UTC) The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 02:59, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
- Weak oppose "Riots" seems accurate to me, and "clashes" is a bit vague. What do reliable sources say? --BDD (talk) 19:13, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
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External links modified
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Page move to 2014 Ukrainian riots
edit@TankDude2000: If you want to move this page after you see than another editor disagrees, you can start a move discussion. I don't see why you should want to move this page to 2014 Ukrainian riots, since that name is in no way specific. Rsk6400 (talk) 12:42, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
Protests or riots ?
editAs far as I see, the last move discussion was #Requested_move_(22_February_2014), but soon after the page was moved back to "2014 Hrushevskoho Street riots", a name that remained stable for 10 years. But in spite of that long period, it seems to me that the result of the last move discussion has to be respected. Also, I checked two sources, [4] and [5]. The word "riot" is absent from both sources except as a modifier in "riot police" and when referring to art. 294 of the criminal law. So, I think "protests" is the correct name. Rsk6400 (talk) 13:53, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Why "Hrushevskoho" instead of "Hrushevsky" ?
editOur article about the street is named Hrushevsky Street (Kyiv). Is there any reason why we should use the genitive case (Hrushevskoho, literally Hrushevsky's) here ? Rsk6400 (talk) 19:43, 7 June 2024 (UTC)