Talk:Purges in Turkey following the 2016 Turkish coup attempt

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Comment.

I feel like this would be better if it were restricted to 2016, but expanded to include the entirety of the Turkish purge. Soldiers, judiciary, police. That would allow large swaths to me moved from there to here, and this to link into the 2016 coup. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hollth (talk • contribs) 13:58, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

• Done. Boud (talk) 21:32, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Are the 2014 one notable enough for a separate split article? It doesn't seem like it's more than what is here, a background related to the 2013 corruption case and a general idea of it being consistent purging. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:04, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 20 July 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved, looks like overwhelming oppose will prevent this. (non-admin closure) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 16:33, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

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2016 Turkish purges → 2016 Turkish counter-coup d'état – The original coup is speculated to be a false flag operation like the Reichstag fire, and the purge has been described (by BBC) as a counter-coup. 124.49.117.100 (talk) 07:56, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose at least for the moment. Speculation does not justify a title change unless we try for something like "alleged counter-coup d'etat", but then that would get a bit ridiculous. Sources: There's a title of one New York Times editorial (see ref list) and you claim one BBC article without giving the URL. For the moment, under WP:NAME, "counter-coup" is not (yet) widely used. (My personal opinion happens to be that "counter-coup" is accurate, but this is irrelevant for a Wikipedia article title.) Boud (talk) 08:33, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. wp:too soon. We don't know that it is, these are atm still allegations. At the moment this is more descriptive and neutral. They are often being referred to as purges in the media (at least the media I'm reading) so I think it fails the common name naming convention too. BBC refers to it as purges more frequently than counter coup. I've not seen that particular phrase without quotation marks from them (yet). Hollth (talk) 15:19, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose. The "coup" wasn't even a real coup to begin with. --Kevin W. - Talk 01:13, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. If anything, self-coup would be a better term describing this whole situation, which is awfully reminiscent of the events of Star Wars: Episode III (both the "coup attempt" and the purges). 93.142.19.103 (talk) 14:05, 23 July 2016 (UTC)
• The Economist also called it a counter-coup (see coup attempt article for source). But I think it's too soon and too controversial, whilst "purges" is both ugly and limiting. How about a nice neutral 2016 Turkish state of emergency? Podiaebba (talk) 20:49, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

  I can see where you are coming from with purges being a bit POV. State of emergency would widen the scope of this article though wouldn't it? That would be my main issue with that name because I do not think this article needs to have a greater scope. I've seen 'crackdown' also used (2016 Turkish government crackdown?). That seems better than 'purge', but still slightly POV. It's one of those tricky situations where almost every name is either POV or too broad and nondescript. Hollth (talk) 05:27, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

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Counter-coup summary table

Hello, below is an easy-to-read a draft summary of the couter-coup. Feel free to detail and source it before we add it into the article.

Group	jailed	suspended
Military	~6.000	?
Judiciary	~3.000	?
Education	--	+30.000
Total	10000	30000

Yug (talk) 09:04, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Suggest changing soldier to military. Soldier is an occupation (e.g, soldier, judge, teacher), not a group or organization (e.g., military, judiciary, education), and even then, education seems a bit off, but works a lot better than soldier. (Notwithstanding whether these were possibly also members of the Turkish air force etc.) TimothyJosephWood 12:26, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

coup attempt was preemptive

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-eu-hahn-idUSKCN0ZY0EA The lists were already prepared.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:13, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

You mean the so-called "coup" was faked from the get-go

Turkish president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has already proven himself a bona-fide megalomaniac. His rhetoric and his actions speak for themselves. His new "presidential palace," built on what was all but sacred ground, is an insane monument to ego. His government has been shown to be funding ISIS. His campaign against those who campaign against corruption shows us exactly who he is. Aside from all of this, if anyone knows how to stage a coup, it's the Turkish military. They've got the experience and have never failed. But this time, we are supposed to believe it was a total debacle from its first minutes, instantly followed by thousands of targeted arrests???

Everywhere the word "coup" appears regarding descriptions of this nightmare, and it is a nightmare to those now suffering from it, should be preceded by the word "alleged." Erdoğan has very high hopes. It's too easy to imagine his dearest dream coming true, becoming the Ottoman's latest Sultan. I don't even want to think about what would come after that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.215.236.176 (talk) 17:30, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Lead Image

@Ahnoneemoos:, probably right that Erdogan isn't the best fit for the lead, what about this pic? It's apparently taken during the protests, and seems fairly neutral. It's not the most relevant pic imaginable, but the article is currently a desert as far as images go. TimothyJosephWood 12:48, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

• Suggestion: a map showing the locations of the List of educational institutions shut down in the 2016 Turkish purges should not be difficult to do under CC-BY-SA. Boud (talk) 02:30, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
• +1. @Boud: Seems interesting to see the geographic scope. --Yug (talk) 14:10, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Ankara

Istanbul

Purges in Turkey following the 2016 Turkish coup attempt (Turkey)

Define 'purged'

It might be better to define 'purged' in the article's lead. Does 'purged' mean they were killed? Or simply dismissed from their roles? The article does not make clear. Uhlan ^talk 01:17, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Images are not (directly) related to the article

Currently, the images in the article are of a protest against the coup, and a Turkish Court house. If there are going to be images in this article, they should be of the actual purge/arrests. Or somthing more directly related to the actual purge (as opposed to a protest against the coup which belongs in the article about the coup). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaakovaryeh (talk • contribs) 02:49, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Infobox

I added an infobox for clarity sake (when on IP, my apologizes). As my first infobox, I welcomes review and helps on it. --Yug (talk) 14:09, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Looks very nice, adds to the article. q (talk) 19:09, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

I returned the box to its previous size. Have to keep in mind that not everyone is going to be using a wide screen monitor. TimothyJosephWood 20:11, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Witch-hunt link should be removed

It's a biased and not a fair link, just a comment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bidursimdi (talk • contribs) 21:40, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. I have removed it. It's a bit like saying "See also: Narcissist" in an article about Trump. Not exactly WP:NPOV. TimothyJosephWood 19:54, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

Care with attribution and human rights matters

Much of the human rights concerns are sourced from one Amnesty International documents. A broader set of sources would be useful. We should also make it clear that the allegations are in Amnesty's (or the press's, or the Western press's, etc...) voice.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:51, 5 August 2016 (UTC).

Should not state as fact that the Gulen movement was involved

That is an unsubstantiated allegation by the Turkish government, which has not yet provided evidence that this is any different from Stalin's Great Purge or the response to the Reichstag Fire. Right now, it is just a purge of alleged Gulenists. User:VirginiaNorseman — Preceding unsigned comment added by VirginianNorseman (talk • contribs) 04:42, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

Agree. Military and gulenist are historical enemies. Suddenly claiming the Gulenist did the military coup appears very suspect.

I'am also surprised by this following edit, wish seems to deny the turkish identity of the purgees and press forward their gulenisthood, without serious proof. Yug 17:26, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Lead section's cut

A massive cut have been done to the lead section. I'am not sure, but it may be politically motivated. Yug 17:26, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Please assume good faith, it wasn't politically motivated, it was lede motivated. The lede is massive, far longer than most articles you can find. I've removed a section again. It's not because the content is bad, it's because it doesn't belong in the lede. The lede needs to be a simple, easy to understand setup of the article. q (talk) 03:45, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

The cut seems quite blind : the two last sections are removed without summarization whatsoever. --Yug (talk) 15:35, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

Incorrect infobox

I strongly object to a "civil conflict" infobox being used for this article. The events covered in this article do not fall under the definition of a civil conflict. There is no conflict and none of the categories in the infobox are valid for this event. If any infobox is to be used, the historical event infobox would be far more appropriate. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 22:35, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

New numbers : 131.651

According to the Prime Minister Binali Yildirim :

• 40,029 state employees has been detained;
  • of whom: 20,335 have been remanded in custody ;
• 5,000 civil servants have been dismissed ;
• near 80,000 others suspended

Turkey launches mass raids against 'Gulen-linked' businesses, Aug 18, 2016.

This means "The purges involved by the dismissal, detention or suspension of over 67,000 125.000 officials". --Yug (talk) 15:38, 30 August 2016 (UTC)

A neutral source. http://theartnewspaper.com/news/news/crackdown-in-turkey-after-coup-attempt/ - 35,000 detained, 82,000 dismissed or suspended from their jobs. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 13:43, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

As of today, I summed up wikipedia sourced numbers in the 2016_Turkish_purges#Purges_by_numbers initial and later purges sections which now reach 131.651, after the Nov. 22th purges (~15k). This is likely a low estimate, since we rely on the government statements and numbers and may have missed some of them. --Yug (talk) 13:47, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

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Ongoing vs present

Should the date be "ongoing" or "present"? Because other articles such as Battle of Mosul (2016–present) and War in Donbass use the latter.--Adûnâi (talk) 03:55, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

There is no need to change.-- Toddy1 (talk) 05:31, 11 May 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 27 May 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. (non-admin closure) TonyBallioni (talk) 04:35, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

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2016–17 Turkish purges → 2016–17 purges in Turkey – In order to have a clearer meaning there should be country's name instead of adjective in the title (adjective "Turkish" can also refer to Turkish people in Germany, for example).
I propose 2016–17 purges in Turkey or Purges in Turkey 2016–17 as a new title. I did not consider this a controversial change because word "purges" was not replaced by some other to change meaning or anything similar; only clarify. Obsuser (talk) 20:27, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

• Support 2016–17 purges in Turkey per nom. —  AjaxSmack  16:57, 14 June 2017 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Anarchyte (work | talk) 06:37, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

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Purge over since the end of state of emergency. No dismissals have taken place.

On July 19 2018 the state of emergency was announced over. The last bulk of dismissals occurred before that date. Purge technically over. Update as necessary if further dismissals are reported. So far 0 dismissals since last month. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marjdabi (talk • contribs) 17:03, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Reliable sources you have removed: diff

"Turkey's State Of Emergency Ends, While Erdogan's Power Grows And 'Purge' Continues". NPR. July 26, 2018.

"Turkey ends state of emergency, but eyes tough terror bill". Deutsche Welle. August 19, 2018.

"Turkey Ends Emergency Rule But Erdogan's War on Enemies Not Over". Bloomberg. July 18, 2018.

"Turkey arrests German for spreading Kurdish propaganda: Anadolu". Reuters. 25 July 2018. -- Tobby72 (talk) 10:57, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Feel free to restore the sources you feel adds up to the purge. Individual arrests of person related to terror charges have been taking place long before 2016. Hence not a part of purge. Dismissals which comprised the purge have ended over a month. No reason to keep the article as purge on going. Any further dismissals occur then update as on going. Marjdabi (talk) 17:21, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

We report what reliable sources say, your thoughts are irrelevant. - Tobby72 (talk) 15:20, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

What does it have to do with my thoughts. Do you report a source even if its spreading false information? Also the biased picture you've added, "the devils child" has no explanation to being there. This is an encyclopedia not a pro Western forum. Marjdabi (talk) 18:12, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

"Turkey parliament approves new anti-terror law". Al-Jazeera. 25 July 2018. — "The measure drafted by President Recep Tayyip Erdogan's Justice and Development Party (AKP) retains aspects of emergency rule and will be valid for three years. It also authorizes the government to dismiss personnel of Turkish Armed Forces, police and gendarmerie departments, public servants and workers if they are found linked to a terror organization. Governors of the country's 81 provinces retain some emergency powers including restricting freedom of assembly. The opposition had criticized the draft legislation as a ploy to make "emergency rule permanent". -- Tobby72 (talk) 22:45, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Tobby72, thanks for your vigilance on this article and preventing its pushy renaming. It is pretty clear that the purge is a long term phenomenon going on with periodic mass purges and precises dissidents arrests for already 24 months. Having one month or two, or event 4, is not enough to consider the purges closed. Current governments has managed to maintain state of emergency levels of controls, with submissive judiciary, submissive army, submissive polices. 2014 anonymous-and-paid denunciation laws are still in effect. Abusive and politically motivated arrest still occurs. Marjdabi, thanks to not rename this page without a clear consensus on the talk page. As I'am one of the 3 main authors of this article, I will from now monitor this naming issue so no abusive renaming occurs. Yug (talk) 18:18, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Tobby72, if you have some busy period some days (as I just had) but notice something odd, please feel free to ping me so to direct my attentions to the said points to inspect. Yug (talk) 18:21, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Interesting sum up

• 2 former MİT officials trying to flee persecution in Turkey detained at Greek border https://stockholmcf.org/2-former-mit-officials-trying-to-flee-persecution-in-turkey-detained-at-greek-border/ via @StockholmCF
• Erdogan's 'long arm': The Turkish nationals 'kidnapped' from Europe https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/turkey/.premium-erdogan-s-long-arm-the-turkish-nationals-kidnapped-from-europe-1.6428298

--Yug (talk) 23:18, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Al-Monitor: "The social toll of Turkey’s emergency rule"

link--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 23:31, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/01/17/turkey-state-emergency-ends-not-repression Yug (talk) 08:19, 23 October 2019 (UTC)

#Nightwatchmen system

I noticed the Nightwatchmen system have been reactivated in 2016 and is biffed up, with criticism and fear of building a Basij-like morality police. I tried to prestructure the section, with history, equipment, authority. More sources review and content to gather here. Will likely need an article later on. Also, as hot 2020-new, the force is proposed by the government to be a way to increase public works in the face of the pandemic. These job, tho, are offered to AKP Youth members, according to one source, which is a de factor clientelism/prebendalism approach (personal analysis). Yug (talk) 10:19, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Mass arrests / repression

• 2020-06-09: 414 people arrested https://www.lemonde.fr/international/article/2020/06/11/turquie-en-baisse-dans-les-sondages-erdogan-mise-sur-la-repression_6042486_3210.html

• Turkish Air force shortages https://eurasiantimes.com/breaking-pakistani-air-force-pilots-flying-turkish-f-16-jets-as-erdogan-attempts-to-fill-the-coup-void-reports/ Yug (talk) 16:21, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Integrate source : Human Right Watch (2016-2020)

• Turkey: Events of 2016 https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2017/country-chapters/turkey#
• Turkey: Events of 2017 https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2018/country-chapters/turkey#
• Turkey: Events of 2018 https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2019/country-chapters/turkey#
• Turkey: Events of 2019 https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/turkey#
• Turkey: Events of 2020 https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/turkey#
• Report Update: Mass Prosecution of Lawyers in Turkey (2016-2021) https://arrestedlawyers.org/2021/01/18/report-update-mass-prosecution-of-lawyers-in-turkey-2016-2021/
• The Arrest of Lawyers Initiatives : Mass Prosecution of Lawyers In Turkey (2016-2021) https://arrestedlawyers.files.wordpress.com/2021/01/report-2016-2021.pdf
• Freedom of the world 2022: Turkey https://freedomhouse.org/country/turkey/freedom-world/2022

Yug (talk) 15:32, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Fetometer NPOV

The phrases and concepts looked for were dialogue, respect for human beings, the golden generation, horizon man, hope and dedication.[177] This sentence in under Fetometer title does not comply with the principle Wikipedia:Neutral point of view needs to remove. İsyankar18 (talk) 07:24, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

I checked and it is verified by the citation. I see no reason to remove. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 14:27, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 22 January 2024

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The result of the move request was: moved. Moved, as an uncontested technical request. Any objection within a reasonable time frame should see the move reverted. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 20:19, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

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Purges in Turkey (2016–present) → Purges in Turkey following the 2016 Turkish coup attempt – Unlikely to ever get a definitive "end" to these purges; renaming at least clarifies the scope. Would also be fine with something like "Purges in Turkey of the Gülen movement". Elli (talk | contribs) 19:35, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.