Talk:2019–2020 Hong Kong protests/Archive 1

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June 9 march

It could be divided into two sub-sections: the day peaceful protest and the night violent clashes and they both can be largely expanded. Lmmnhn (talk) 19:33, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

@Lmmnhn:  Done Roughly expanded with two sections.

Requested move 10 June 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. No consensus to move the page. (non-admin closure)  Nova Crystallis (Talk) 02:39, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

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2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests → 2019 Hong Kong protests – AFAIK, there have been no other notable protests in Hong Kong this year. Therefore this is unambiguous. The page should be moved per WP:CONCISE. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 23:46, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose: There are more numerous protests this year besides the anti-extradition bill protests. The annual Tiananmen commemorative protest on 26 May for one, the annual July 1 march for another. There was also a protest against co-location plan on 1 January this year. Lmmnhn (talk) 02:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: per Lmmnhn. Oshawott 12 ==()== Talk to me! 03:37, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: The purposed name is not specific. And maybe there will be other protests which goal is not anti-bill.Mariogoods (talk) 04:20, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: Similar reasons to above. prat (talk) 05:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: per above, proposed name is not specific at all. Cypp0847 (talk) 07:15, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: The proposed name should be an index page for all individual protest pages in Hong Kong in 2019. Jamesshliu (talk) 10:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lmmnhn —Nizolan ^(talk) 13:48, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lmmnhn. As others have mentioned, the proposed name is too ambiguous; the phrase "extradition bill" should be kept in the title per WP:PRECISE and WP:NCEVENTS. And per WP:CRITERIA, numerous top-tier reliable sources include the phrase "extradition bill" in their article titles, such as: NYT, Time, BBC, Guardian, Bloomberg, WaPo, etc. ~ Big universe (talk) 00:36, 12 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per Lmmnhn. Citobun (talk) 01:41, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Including the June 12 protest

There is a massive process today, shall we include this in the article or wait for credible sources and updates? Thanks. Cheers, WikiAviator (talk) 05:04, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

We should. But as things might esculate quickly, maybe waiting for solid reports could be a better idea. –Wefk423 (talk) 07:35, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Should the article include 13 June?

The day following the 12 June protest, there was some assemblies and prayers around. Protesters also went back to clean up the streets. Is it notable enough to be included? If yes, should it be in a new section or inside the 12 June section? Cheers. –Wefk423 (talk) 17:17, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, with WP:reliable source as citation. It still on the TV news in Australia on 13 June. Matthew hk (talk) 04:22, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

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DMY dates

Per the edit [1] by Ohconfucius, all dates have changed to DMY to maintain consistency. As the subheadings of the article (eg: "June 9: Third and largest protest") uses MDY style, it has been changed too. I have manually undid the subheading edits for now to maintain correct wikilinking from the extradition bill article to the different sections in this article. I want to ask for everyone's input – should the subheadings be "9 June: Third and largest protest" or "June 9: Third and largest protest"? However, mass media reports and the government press release used "June 9" to describe the protest. Also, it is much easier to read and search for each protest event from the table of contents. What should we do with the subheadings? –Wefk423 (talk) 18:34, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion, this aspect of MOS:DATEUNIFY is dubious because the choice to use DM vs. MD, without the year, is independent of DMY vs. MDY and one can frequently find non-American publications mixing MD with DMY, as do many of the Hong Kong publications you mention. That's a discussion to be had about the MOS and not this page, though. In this case, I agree with you that MD formatting provides better structure to the table of contents, and that might be a solid case for the mixed option I mentioned, but we should stick with one format and not switch from MD to DM between the section headers and the body. —Nizolan ^(talk) 20:08, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

@Nizolan: Thank you and I agree – I just wanted to enhance the readability of the article, especially the table of contents, but mixing MD and DM throughout the whole article might make things worst. I also started a discussion in Ohconfucius’ talk page (User_talk:Ohconfucius#2019_Hong_Kong_anti-extradition_bill_protests) and Izno suggested a great idea, that the subheadings of the events could be simply “First protests, 9 June”. This solves the date consistency and table of contents structure. This works too. ​​ –Wefk423 (talk) 20:43, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

@Wefk423: That works fine for me, and avoids having to wrangle over the MOS. —Nizolan ^(talk) 20:56, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• I'm fine with Izno's suggestion. We should definitely not mix dmy and mdy within the body of any article, whether we treat day-month independent from day-month-year or not. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 21:03, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Since Hong Kong use dmy (following British traditions) It should use dmy for consistent and any internal wiki link should be fixed for dmy format. Matthew hk (talk) 03:48, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

@User:Ohconfucius, @User:Nizolan, @User:Matthew hk and @User:Wefk423 For sure that Hong Kong uses DMY format but it is different on the case of describing an event, such as July 1 protest, June 4 vigil, June 9 protest and so forth in which the date is used as an adjective. I have never seen someone said 1 July protest, 4 June vigil or 9 June protest. We just don't read it in that way. Lmmnhn (talk) 17:53, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

That's what I thought too, I also agree that using MD format would be more natural. But apparently, the July 1 protest article (Hong Kong 1 July marches) uses DM format as well. –Wefk423 (talk) 18:08, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

"July 1" protest looks like a bad direct transliteration from Chinese. See also for WP:ENVAR (Hong Kong English is based on British English grammar and spelling) and MOS:DATE#Consistency. Matthew hk (talk) 11:51, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Date formats throughout (including headings) written in conformity with WP:MOSNUM. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 17:33, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

June 12 protest: "the first time on locals since the 1967 riots"

Not clear whether words were dropped in this paragraph. (Under "Fourth Protest: 12 June", starting with "It was controversially argued...")

I looked for but could not find any article that indicated this was the first time Hong Kong police had <done something on> locals since the 1967 riots. Maybe fired rubber bullets? That would be my guess but I don't want to guess. Magnabonzo (talk) 20:55, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I think the sentence refers to the way how the government labelled the protest. Officially, the government uses “march” or “assembly” to label protests, but “riots” are rarely used. The sentence might be confusing and needed copyedit. However, I could not find any citations supporting this claim either. –Wefk423 (talk) 20:59, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

It was ungrammatical as it stood so I rewrote the relevant sentence and tagged it cn (I haven't looked into the claim). —Nizolan ^(talk) 21:10, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Given that the 2016 Mong Kok civil unrest page says that the HK government classified that incident as a riot the claim is most probably false. —Nizolan ^(talk) 21:33, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Such claim need WP:reliable source and WP:DUE. The nature of 1967 riots is totally different BTW. In 1967 there were bomb on the street as well as support from communists. While basically more like a militia war in 1967. In the other hand, quoting foreign journalist, they don't even feel the protesters are violence in 2019. Matthew hk (talk) 04:01, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and I can also find references in scholarly literature to riots in the 1970s. I've removed it. —Nizolan ^(talk) 11:19, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

• Some off-topic: In 1967 it was widely defined as 暴動, only some garbage book using other wording which were published by communist owned Sino United Publishing. While the Mong Kok riot was defined as 暴動 by the police, and some media just use 騷動 (BBC Chinese use 騷動 and 衝突 and quoting Joseph Wong: "騷亂"). However, both Chinese words 暴動, 騷動 can be translated as riot. It cause more controversy that Ming Pao's editorial use 暴動 ([2]), that made the translator of editorial refused to work for the newspaper anymore [3] and the frontier journalist of the newspaper declared the opinion of the editorial column [4] is not representing their own opinion. For context, 1967 can't be compare to 2019, while the 2019 protests may be using the word riots for a small patch of protesters. However, it may just plain confusing to label it as riots in the paragraph as the majority of the protesters did not involve in violence. In the other hand, physician made a statement to condemn the violence FROM the police. Matthew hk (talk) 04:21, 14 June 2019 (UTC)
  • The politics of owning the terms of a debate. There was an article in the SCMP about this...-- Ohc ^¡digame! 17:56, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

By legal definition it is riot as it is the reason that some "protesters" were arrested. But at the same time Public Order Ordinance was reverted to the harsh version after 1997. So, the subsequent demand from protesters are release those who were arrested and canceling the legal process to sue them. It all depends on reliable source however to slide on which wording and may be a merit of having a section on this wiki article, as journalist keep on asking the chief executive on "riot" or not on 18? June press conference. Matthew hk (talk) 10:59, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Free images

Are the images on these articles freely licensed? http://en.farsnews.com/13980322000368 , http://en.farsnews.com/13980320000596 , https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2019/06/12/2030372/protests-paralyze-central-hong-kong , https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2019/06/11/2029947/hong-kong-gears-up-for-fresh-protests-strikes-as-anger-boils-over , https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2019/06/09/2028278/hundreds-of-thousands-march-in-hong-kong-to-protest-china-extradition-bill , https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2019/05/26/2019895/thousands-march-in-hong-kong-to-commemorate-june-4-protests Victor Grigas (talk) 22:40, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

More background

Quoting the analysis of local politician , the protest of the bill, have some related background such as Xiao Jianhua, Gui Minhai and Causeway Bay Books disappearances, as well as the "opposition" (pen-democrat) faction of LegCo member were either disqualified (see also March 2018 Hong Kong by-elections and November 2018 Kowloon West by-election) or unable to participate the voting of the bill due to the verdict of Occupy Central with Love and Peace. So, if there is enough source to fulfill WP:DUE criteria, is that notable to add it to the background section of this article or in the wiki article for the bill? Matthew hk (talk) 03:58, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I think it should be added to the bill article as it is a concern against the bill. However, a brief sentence introducing the analysis could be included in this article's background. –Wefk423 (talk) 12:00, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

I think that if you shouldn't use the Causeway Bay Books disappearances because no one actually knows what happened to them. 113.252.121.187 (talk) 00:28, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Move "Reaction" sections to seperate section?

Currently the "Reaction" sections are all segmented under the individual protests. Should they be compiled into a singular "Reactions" section?

Also, this should be included under the United States' reaction: https://www.cecc.gov/media-center/press-releases/commissioners-reintroduce-hong-kong-human-rights-and-democracy-act Mount2010 (talk) 02:01, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

I went ahead and did it; feel free to make any appropriate modifications. -- Jeremy Ahn ^{(talk | contribs)} 16:19, 14 June 2019 (UTC)

Adding more content in "reaction" section

I found China officially condemned the June 12 protest in 2019 Bill article, but not found it in the article. Could someone add it?Mariogoods (talk) 10:49, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Move different dates of "solidarity protests around the world" into one new section?

Hello all. I've been wondering to move all different "Solidarity protests around the world" into a new section. It seems like there is a lot of reapeated "Hong Kong" and "Around the world" protests in different days. Should we group it together to a new section, similar to the "Reaction" section (#Move_"Reaction"_sections_to_seperate_section?) Cheers. –Wefk423 (talk) 10:47, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

I think further to my comment below there could be a single "International reactions" section which includes both solidarity protests and responses from foreign governments. —Nizolan ^(talk) 15:09, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

But it is not really "international reactions" as some of the overseas rally are from Hong Kong immigrants. –Wefk423 (talk) 17:36, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

If you prefer something like "Overseas" to "International" then use that. —Nizolan ^(talk) 18:43, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

HK government in "Reactions"

Since the Hong Kong government is a party to the civil conflict, moving all of its reactions, up to and including the decision to delay the bill, to a separate section apart from the main timeline of events seems to me to make the article disjointed and potentially even POV. I think this bullet point should be split up and integrated into the rest of the article, and the "Reactions" section left for actors outside of HK. —Nizolan ^(talk) 15:05, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

I think this bullet point should be split up and integrated into the rest of the article Do you mean that it should be separated into different event sections or... a new section for the HK government actions? –Wefk423 (talk) 17:39, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

It should be integrated in the existing sections for the events of the protests, not in a different section, I think. —Nizolan ^(talk) 18:44, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

Let's give it a go. I think it makes sense that a "reactions" section is better left for third party reactions. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 19:09, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

+1, the HK government has held a number of news conferencesthat are naturally important to the matter, but there seems to be little place for them af the moment. Suzukaze-c (talk) 17:17, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

????

@Lmmnhn: What are you trying to argue by saying that objective of a protest is not NPOV? Objective of a protest, is of course to reflect what the protestors want, and that's fact that have been published, so I an not sure what sort of "other point of view" you want there.

At most maybe you can say sometimes the fifth demand wasn't being included. C933103 (talk) 07:14, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

There is no citations whatsoever and the tone is largely not neutral. How is "The non-democratically elected city leader refused listening opinion of the citizens during the course of the bill's legislation process" possibly be neutral? Lmmnhn (talk) 07:55, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

@Lmmnhn: I am not in a situation that can search and insert citation into Wikipedia as I can only use mobile computing device now and the performance of Wikipedia mobile editor is really poor when interworking between multiple pages in mobile browser. There should be tons of citation out there that cited these demand, if you actually care then just pick a few and paste them into it. As for the wording in the paragraph, they are intended to reflect the factual demand made by protestors, and thus they are fact not opinion and thus not subjected to NPOV requirements. Although it might need to be better worded so that users wouldc clearly understand it is from protestors. C933103 (talk) 22:35, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

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Should we include the police supporting campaign on 30 June to this article?

The campaign is organized mainly due to the accusations to the police on the 12 June Demonstration. Anti-extradition bill protesters and a legislative council member were attacked by police supporters. But it is not an anti-extradition bill protest. Dasostsu (talk) 18:25, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

I think it should be included in the 2019 Hong Kong extradition bill article instead of here, as this is about the anti-extradition bill protests. Cheers. –Wefk423 (talk) 19:03, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

International Reaction

US: I removed this statement -- Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said the President would discuss the mass protests in Hong Kong with President Xi at the upcoming G20 summit in Osaka. "We see what's happening, what's unfolding in Hong Kong. We are watching the people of Hong Kong speak about the things they value," Pompeo said.

I removed the statement because it is already past tense... and apparently the discussion didn't happen, at least not the way it's implied.

Instead, I added this -- "However, President Trump reportedly told Chinese president Xi that the US would tone down criticism of Beijing's approach in Hong Kong, in order to revive trade talks with China." -- linked to [5]

Is this source, the Financial Times citing "several people familiar with the meeting", solid enough for such a statement on the Wikipedia page? Magnabonzo (talk) 14:02, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Here is the beginning text of the Financial Times article linked to. It is sometimes behind a firewall...

---

Donald Trump told Chinese president Xi Jinping last month that the US would tone down criticism of Beijing’s approach to Hong Kong following massive protests in the territory in order to revive trade talks with China.

The US president made the commitment when the two leaders met at the G20 summit in Osaka, according to several people familiar with the meeting. One person said Mr Trump made a similar pledge in a phone call with Mr Xi ahead of the G20 summit.

The White House and state department declined to comment.

Following the Trump-Xi meeting, the state department told Kurt Tong, the departing US consul general in Hong Kong, to remove several critical comments about China from his final speech in the Asian financial hub. Mr Tong had told people he would give a speech about Hong Kong that would mention the erosion of freedoms by China in the territory, but the veteran diplomat was forced to water down the July 2 address.

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Magnabonzo (talk) 15:31, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

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NEW: Hong Kong Watch report released 10 July / where to add this in the article?

Drop outdated rioting charges and call independent inquiry: New report
https://www.hongkongwatch.org/all-posts/2019/7/10/drop-outdated-rioting-charges-and-call-independent-inquiry-new-report

Outdated and Draconian: Hong Kong's Public Order Ordinance
https://www.hongkongwatch.org/s/hkw-report_jul19-3.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.60.163.223 (talk) 22:41, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

Include 13 July protests in the article?

There was a another anti-extradition law protest on the 13th of July in Sheung Shui. Can anyone add a section on it in the article containing an appropriate amoutof data? Thanks Bohaska (talk) 11:01, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

• It's of a different nature as it's targeted at parallel exporters, just people caught up in the protestation mode, so I'm not convinced it belongs... We mustn't give undue weight. Anyway, it's there for now: see section "Other movements". -- Ohc ^¡digame! 14:40, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
• I think it belongs to either Anti-parallel trading protests or Reclaim Sheung Shui Station. –Wefk423 (talk) 15:01, 14 July 2019 (UTC)
  • I think the Reclaim movements as a series of events is connected to the wider anti-extradition protests, given that they are part of a coordinated efforts to hold protests across the 18 districts to pressurize the government to answer their calls and as an attempt to draw support from the milder, or even pro-Beijing citizens. These protests are also related to the police brutality which was linked to the journalist allegations below. AdrianGamer (talk) 18:40, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Grouping police violence and assault to journalists allegations?

Hello all. It seems that most of the police violence and assault to journalists allegations are introduced in the 12 June protest section. However, several allegations has been raised during different demonstration events. On 14 June, journalist also called for a Journalists' silent march, which currently is now inside the #Other_movements section. Also, different requests for a independent inquiry report were made. Should we group it together, with different allegations from different dates? Maybe seperating police excessive violence and assault to journalists? Cheers. –Wefk423 (talk) 16:38, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

• Hi. I am new to editing the politics article in Wikipedia but I think we should have a separate section about police brutality. It almost seems that it is a bigger focus for the protesters when compared with withdrawing the bill. AdrianGamer (talk) 18:40, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

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Fix bias?

I have noticed that most editors show violence by police and doesn't show violence by protesters and I noticed that most people here have Western opinions. Can anyone fix bias in the article? Bohaska (talk) 01:14, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

Well, there are actual human rights issues. Studies have been done by professionals:
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/0576/2019/en/
65.60.163.223 (talk) 06:22, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I think it is nesserary to do so. However, it should be noted that using source from China state-run media should be more careful since they are supposely ordered to only display protesters' violence. But could we using such source when we need to cite China official's view? The reaction section still displays reaction in June.Mariogoods (talk) 06:39, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Agree that there is almost certainly going to be bias in this article since it is still ongoing, information is not transparent yet, and there are likely to be issues with people editing it who are quite close to the issue and may have some biases. I also agree with Mariogoods that it is probably not useful to cite China state-run media since there is a directive to deliberately exclude certain narratives to support a political point of view, so they are unlikely to be reliable, except perhaps in explaining the CCP's position on these matters. That being said, it is probably better to directly quote from officials from the Mainland where that is available. Kdm852 (talk) 07:08, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, good point: there is the Chinese government media section ... there is also an International reaction section that does not yet have a summary of the Chinese government position on the protests. 65.60.163.223 (talk) 07:15, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

I give up. Western sources are more likely to show violence by police and Chinese sources are more likely to show violence by protesters. There is no truely transparent source. Bohaska (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Well there is plenty of video evidence of both. The other issue is concentration of power / scale / the ability to do harm. For example, firing a tear gas canister can effect dozens or even hundreds of people; whereas a protester defending themselves with an umbrella and pushing it in the direction of an armored riot cop only impacts one person. Both actions could perhaps be considered violent, but the actions of the police officer would likely gain more attention as they are paid trained professionals who are, by definition, required to uphold the law in any and all circumstances. Further, on-duty police are much less likely to be arrested for their actions, while demonstrators are much more likely to be held accountable by a court of law for even the most minor of transgressions.

Rule of law is generally very much on the side of the police (and powerful police unions), and they are therefore scrutinized more thoroughly as a result–and this is pretty much how it is in most countries of the world; it doesn't seem to me that it is an East / West thing. It's an issue of critically analyzing power dynamics and the impacts of an uneven distribution of that power. 65.60.163.223 (talk) 17:31, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

including info from Chinese language articles? Apple Daily infographic of Sha Tin events

This infographic and timeline of Sha Tin events looks well documented:
https://hk.news.appledaily.com/local/daily/article/20190716/20730456
https://static.appledaily.hk/images/apple-photos/apple/20190716/large/1563209523_f20a.jpg

But everything is in Chinese ... any way to include this information here?
2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests#14 July Sha Tin march
65.60.163.223 (talk) 18:50, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Not without permission from the publisher. Kdm852 (talk) 00:37, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I am not suggesting to use the graphic itself, but rather to cite the source and use the information from the graphic in the Wikipedia article.
My question is more about: "How do we translate information from Chinese into English and use that in a Wikipedia article?" Is there a protocol regarding how to use such sources? For the record, I do not read / write Chinese, and therefore cannot translate to English or else I would do this myself. : ) 65.60.163.223 (talk) 01:16, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Here you go: Citing non-English sources Essentially, it's fine to use non-English sources if you so choose, but there is a preference for English sources if they are available so it's easier for other Wikipedians to check the ref. Kdm852 (talk) 01:52, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Apple Daily despite pro-democracy, they had one of the poorest quality check among the print newspaper. I would only use Apple Daily if there is more than one source (i.e. WP:DUE) as citations for that fact. Matthew hk (talk) 01:19, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

Okay, but that's the only thing I've seen so far that gives a chronology / timeline of events. 65.60.163.223 (talk) 01:50, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

RTHK had made a chronology in their current affair program (視點31：「廝殺」新城市廣場；社會創傷；溫柔抗爭與語言暴力；毅進之名), which may be used as a citation. A separate concern: wikipedia should written in a historical context and no need to over detailed. Matthew hk (talk) 05:25, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Reminder: Wikipedia had a site wide policy of no original research

Please read WP:OR. Yes, the news report had photo evidence, but interpretation of the photo by wiki editors is strictly prohibited by site policy. If the news report had the description of the event of the photo, it is fine to rephrase and cite it. But it is not fine to describe the event directly from the photo and video but not written in that news report. Matthew hk (talk) 17:13, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

This mainly concern "Yuen Long attacks". Many source were saying police is completely empty and not response, including the more pro-establishment Oriental Daily News ([6]). While Ming Pao stated that the police arrived at the train station after the white clothes mod had (temp.) left ([7]).

And then it is strictly prohibited to interpret the primary source from the video attached to Apple Daily online instant news [8] claiming by wiki editors (instead of news report) whatever "the police arrived from the opposite entrance of the station around the same time" or "A recording shows police officers leaving the station when the white cloth group is gathering" (both quoted from this wiki article either from current version or from page history). Both claims need to be quote from secondary source especially the narrative of the news report, instead of written by wiki editor directly. Matthew hk (talk) 06:37, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Description of Extradition Law itself is to vague

If the article is partly based on the extradition law, why is the a one sentence description about it? There are more details than a sentence in it. Bohaska (talk) 00:35, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Because there is an article already at 2019 Hong Kong extradition bill. Matthew hk (talk) 06:38, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Withdrawal of the classification as a "riot" is partial and is legally invalid.

• Regarding my edit, I would like to point out that the government has not fully retracted the classification that the protests, instead claimed that 5 participated in the "riot". Everyone who participated in the June 12 protests ("unlawful assembly") can be classified as "riotous" once one person is classified as "riotous", as the entire "unlawful assembly" will be classified as a riot. Consider an excerpt from Cap. 245 "Public Order Ordinance"

18. Unlawful assembly (1) When 3 or more persons, assembled together, conduct themselves in a disorderly, intimidating, insulting or provocative manner intended or likely to cause any person reasonably to fear that the persons so assembled will commit a breach of the peace, or will by such conduct provoke other persons to commit a breach of the peace, they are an unlawful assembly. (Amended 31 of 1970 s. 11)

19. Riot (1) When any person taking part in an assembly which is an unlawful assembly by virtue of section 18(1) commits a breach of the peace, the assembly is a riot and the persons assembled are riotously assembled. (Amended 31 of 1970 s. 12)

I have hence included "partial" in the edit linked above. References: [9] Synchrotron Ladiation (talk) 13:21, 18 June 2019 (UTC) — Synchrotron Ladiation (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. '

NO WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH in wikipedia. We only knew in the press conference today, the news reporter keep on asking the chief executive Carrie Lam on 'withdrew the classification as a "riot"', which was one of the demands from 16 June 2019 protest, as well as Carrie Lam quoting the police there are some of the protesters are violating the riot law. We don't carry personal analysis or commentary or interpretation of the law. Matthew hk (talk) 13:44, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

I understand your point and I have also seen a lot of analysis on the "withdrawal" contradicts with the current law. I think it's better to change the article until further reports and announcements were made. –Wefk423 (talk) 16:11, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

I really don't know even quoting some law experts opinions that were published in the newspaper , have a merit in an encyclopedia article for stating it can be practical in term of court or law. Matthew hk (talk) 16:23, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Agree, though it might be useful in the extradition bill article. –Wefk423 (talk) 18:05, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

This may be helpful. The official party line, per the Vice Chairperson of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, is that people who throw bricks at police are criminals but everyone has the right to peaceful political protest. He goes on to state that they wish to use soft power but the consequences of being too lenient could put innocent bystanders at risk. Some rioting did occur on the fringes but the demonstrators seemed overwhelmingly peaceful. As a side note I think the un-named journalist who shielded that downed officer should have a mention in the article because it was just a nice thing to do.

49.198.7.235 (talk) 06:58, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

References

Confusion

I read the sentence "Pro-democratic LegCo members signed a petition to condemn the negligence of the police in allowing suspected triads to become enforcers of their own rules,[222] while the pro-Beijing DAB condemned the violent incident."

The view of the pro-Beijing DAB confused me. Personally, I think pro-democracy camp and pro-Beijing camp have different view. The former thinks violence refers to violence "commited by pro-Beijing camp and police" while the latter thinks violence refers to violence "commited by rioters (protesters)". Should we make it clearer so the reader won't be confused?

Mariogoods (talk) 06:53, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

The white mob are suspected triad gang . I don't think any political parties are willing to associate with them, regardless of their political spectrum. Matthew hk (talk) 07:12, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

There is also not a clear report or article stating that the pro-democratic site believe it is committed bu the pro-beijing camp. They did mention Junuis Ho for his poor excuse (in the press conference), but mainly focused on the police negligence. –Wefk423 (talk) 14:38, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Adding Ireland to "international reaction"

I am not sure there are reliable secondary source to cover this, it seem Ireland's Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade had updated the webpage regarding Hong Kong on 16 July 2019, saying If you are planning a trip to Hong Kong S.A.R. or Macau S.A.R. we advise you to take a high degree of caution.. I knew we should avoid citing primary source directly, so i left the link in the talk page and meanwhile try to dig out a reliable secondary source, in order to potentially incorporate to the main body of the wiki article. Matthew hk (talk) 19:28, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I suggest that Ireland isn't a big enough country to warrant an explicit addition? If the UK or Germany or US changes their travel advisories, then it's worth including? Magnabonzo (talk) 20:21, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Yuen Long 21 July

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Currently, there's a "Yuen Long pro-Beijing attacks" subsection under 21 July. We also have the stub 2019 Yuen Long Terrorist Attack. Should content be moved over, or should 2019 Yuen Long Terrorist Attack be merged into the parent article? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:2019 Yuen Long violence § Merge

 – –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 02:31, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I removed an unsourced claim about the amount of people injured.

This article should be speedily merged with 2019 Hong Kong extradition bill until claims of its notability can be established. @Levivich and Kingsif: what say you both? –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 01:51, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Note the merger discussion started yesterday by Another Believer at Talk:2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests#21 July. (I agree this article should be merged, probably to the protest article.) – Levivich 02:19, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

@Levivich: Moved conversation here to not have it in two places. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 02:31, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

The Yuen Long violence event is a key event no matter it is part of the anti-extradition bill protests. It reveals the paradigm between the local gang in New Territories, the police, and protesters and it will be one of the key historical events in the Hong Kong protests. There is, and there will be lots of new evidence and discussion regarding the Yuen Long event in the coming days and the amount of those informations would be large enough for this article to be kept as an independent article. I don't agree with the merger, especially a quick one. The discussion should be last for days until a significant amount of Wikipedia users are involved in the discussion. Thanks. --Angelalive (talk) 03:25, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

@Angelalive: Having a days long conversation seems so unnecessary. Unless you have a WP:CRYSTALBALL, the article should be incubated and split off at a later date. Dividing our coverage makes no logistical sense. This is especially true in light of sensitive events like potential terrorist attacks. Honestly, if I wasn't involved, I'd perform the merge myself already. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 05:19, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

@MJL:Thanks for that and I understand your point. But I do think they are two different events even if they are related. We won't merge Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand into World War I, because they are really two different articles. -- Angelalive (talk) 06:09, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

@MJL:Now, the Chinese version of the Yuen Long event article is 5 pages long in pdf. Once they are translated into English (which I'm sure they will be done soon), that will be 5 pages long as well. And more contents are still rapidly coming and it's not that difficult to reach 10 pages or more. --Angelalive (talk) 06:15, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

A mob of armed triad terrorists indiscriminately attacked civilians, and the terrorists do not claim that they are related to counter-protest. The Yuen Long violence event is an independent issue. hoising (talk) 03:55, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

@Hoising:Thanks for pointing out that. It is very important to note that the focuses of the Yuen Long Event and the anti-extradition bill protests are fundamentally different. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Angelalive (talk • contribs) 2019-07-23T06:03:27 (UTC)

Oppose Merge due to reasons mentioned above. -hoising (talk) 09:01, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:2019 Yuen Long violence § Merge

 – Matthew hk (talk) 19:32, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Support merge.-Tai Po Joe (talk) 05:43, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

• Support the main article covers the topic more in-depth than what we have here. It can be split again if the content there grows too large. feminist (talk) 05:46, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Merge 2019 Yuen Long violence is related, but the "main" article 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests already quite long. Also, non-protesters are injured [10], such as Ryan Lau who just want to pick up protesters to drive them back home. Thus, according to WP:Merge, there is some overlap between the two topic, but not quite entirely. 2019 Yuen Long violence itself is WP:GNG notable to have a dedicated article, and free up space for the article length of 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests (see also WP:article length recommendation: 200kB , current size of this wiki article: 249,537 bytes). Matthew hk (talk) 08:37, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Merge - both articles are needed and all the info from the proposed merger article would not fit in this larger articles and would make it unreadable in the end.BabbaQ (talk) 09:23, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Merge : Most victims being attacked, are not protesters. —— CommInt'l (talk) 09:30, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Merge for now. Let's allow this to continue to develop for now, and revisit this merger down the line. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 10:01, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, for the reason that the main article is too long; the main article should be split instead. Also, I expect that the merge-proposed article will keep growing. Σανμοσα^{The Trve Lawe of free Monarchies} 11:41, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Merge This is a major event and incident in Hong Kong. I believe the main article should expand while moving some information from this article to the other one. –Wefk423 (talk) 14:23, 23 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Merge This is a significant event by itself. It's related to the broader protests but different, and should be addressed separately. It is getting separate attention. Also, as noted, the HK anti-extradition bill protests page is getting long and unwieldy as it is. Another user suggested merging because "the main article covers the topic more in-depth than what we have here". This may have been true about 15 hours ago when the comment was written, but now the main article has about 10 paragraphs on the Yuen Long attacks, compared with the 30 paragraphs of the specific wiki-page. I think the only reason to try to merge them would be if there were concerns about maintaining two separate sets of information accurately, but I think there's enough interest that both can be maintained safely, at least for now.Magnabonzo (talk) 20:11, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Response to US State Department from MOFA

Hey, I don't want to misrepresent or misunderstand this, but apparently the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of China responded to something either McGovern or someone in the US Congress (edit: actually US State Department) said, saying that Hong Kong has more freedom than ever and that the viewpoint expressed by someone on July 22nd was founded in prejudice against China. Here's the link: 外交部驻港公署发言人敦促美方停止向暴力不法行为发出错误信号 针对美国务院发言人22日就香港问题发表言论，外交部驻香港公署发言人表示，我们对美方错误表态表示强烈不满和坚决反对。{...}美方所谓香港自治受到“侵蚀”的表态，是基于偏见的无端指责，是别有用心的政治抹黑。 This might ought to be included in the article, but I don't want to mess it up, so I'm just going to put it here and let someone more knowledgeable try to write this one up (if needed). I don't want to get banned for writing the wrong thing. Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:21, 23 July 2019 (UTC) (modified)

Here's a version from Xinhua: 外交部驻港特派员公署发言人敦促美方停止向暴力不法行为发出错误信号. Here's what I think would be appropriate to add:

"On July 23, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the People's Republic of China disputed remarks from the United States Department of State that were made on July 22."

If there are no responses to my post, I will add something like this to the page. Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:57, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm trying to find exactly what was said on July 22nd- here's something from VOA that says the State Department made a statement of some kind? Hong Kong Anger Grows After Attack on Protesters Geographyinitiative (talk) 00:09, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

I have added the English version of said Xinhua article. You can check it in Chinese government and media section to avoid violating NPOV policy. Mariogoods (talk) 06:00, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

References

Suggestion

I think a new page about Chinese state-run media and the protests. Chinese state-run media is mass reporting "rioters' violence" and discrediting them. And I think such information is notable enough because it reflects Chinese government's view and partly Chinese's view. Should we create such page to present such topic? Also, the page becomes too long to read normally.Mariogoods (talk) 22:35, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

• Maybe we could put the content in Propaganda in China? -- Ohc ^¡digame! 10:20, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Maybe Propaganda in China is unable to cover everything about the topic. The topic covers not only China's propaganda, but also Chinese netizen's opposeing the "rioters".Mariogoods (talk) 22:34, 25 July 2019 (UTC)
    • Try Wumao or United Front Work Department. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 20:54, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Li Peng

It is a joke right? It is a sarcasm instead of real reason of protest. It is not appropriate to act as a section title. Matthew hk (talk) 09:35, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

And now whole section disappeared without discussion? Matthew hk (talk) 15:27, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Looks like it was moved here: 2019_Hong_Kong_anti-extradition_bill_protests#Reclaim_Yuen_Long

To the "Other movements" section. No mention of Li Peng's memorial service anymore! : ) 65.60.163.223 (talk) 22:52, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Aerial view of the protesting crowd in Causeway Bay.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:52, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Third Citizen's Press Conference

The 3rd Citizen’s Press Conference will be held at 14:00. Topic of today’s press conference will be: “Behind the Mask: Citizens are protected by protestors”

via HK Apple Daily: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D33hB4Qb5UY 65.60.163.223 (talk) 06:09, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

We can't state primary source . There would be plenty of news coverage which can be used by wiki editors as secondary source. Matthew hk (talk) 09:29, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Matthew hk: Yes, thank you ... I just pasted the link here for anyone interested in knowing more details about on-going current events, etc. No intention of citing any primary sources. : ) 65.60.163.223 (talk) 20:48, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

fatalities / suicides: currently 4 or 5 or 6 ?

I have not seen any sources to suggest more than 4 deaths so far.

However, this number is repeatedly edited (without citations) to 5 or 6. There must be other information going around in Chinese-language media that has not made it into English print media somehow? Or are these rumours? Thanks. 65.60.163.223 (talk) 00:47, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

According to Chinese Wikipedia, there were 5 suicides. Updated infobox and "Suicide" section, with a news report from HK01. HOWEVER, the news report stated that Fan committed suicide because he had some arguments with his parents about his political stance, unlike the first 4 suicide incidents. –Wefk423 (talk) 16:04, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

@Wefk423: Thank you!!! 65.60.163.223 (talk) 18:18, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Insulting flag?

Chinese state-run media have codemoned the "rioters insulting Chinese flag". But I have not found any sentences methioning such incident. Even the incident does not occurs like Chinese state-run media says, I think the incident should be methioned because mass codemoning after August 3 are based on this.Mariogoods (talk) 00:06, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't know what censored Chinese news is reporting, but I saw a couple of English language articles about how a flag was thrown into the water during a protest a few days ago at some point. 65.60.163.223 (talk) 04:05, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Ahh, some top search hits, here:

"... some protesters climbed up a cluster of flag poles and removed the Chinese national flag. After some debate over whether to paint the flag black, they decided to throw it into the water before the police could intervene."

https://time.com/5643071/hong-kong-protests-china-flag/

"A commentary published on Sunday by state news agency Xinhua said the protesters who threw the flag into the harbour had 'publicly trampled on national dignity.' It described their action as 'an insult to all Chinese people, including Hongkongers, and is an unforgiveable crime that needs to be severely punished.' ... It may be a lengthy process to bring the thugs to justice but making on-site arrests will be a good deterrent."

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3021357/pro-government-supporters-raise-chinese-flag-hong-kong

Yeah, it sounds like some of those Communist Party dudes are a little upset about it all. 65.60.163.223 (talk) 04:22, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

Briefly, Chinese version of the August 3 protest is that "the rioters tear flag down and they would be punished by history". However, if there are realiable source to provide evidences that the thing occured, feel free to add it because Chinese government and media's reaction is solely based on "flag insult" incident.Mariogoods (talk) 04:30, 5 August 2019 (UTC)

@Mariogoods: Okay yes, someone added this info to the "3 August protests" section. I included the above citations as well. 65.60.163.223 (talk) 18:38, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

suggestion

I will take a rest and not edit Wikipedia articles for a short period of time. But before short break, I want to give some suggestions for anyone who edits the article.

• Enlarge and clean up the sections described notable anti-protests and anti-protesters views and events such as Chinese government and media. Because they are part of the protests too and some views and events can decide fate of the protest and protesters. Despite Chinese state-run media have a strong connection to the subject and have a strong attitude towards the subject, it could be used as reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author. Also, the Chinese state-run media are good at reflecting the party’s view, so Chinese state-run media could be cited too.
• Word to Watch. Since Chinese government’s view is notable enough to documented in the article, I think it is important to watch the words we used. For example, Chinese government's view includes "the protesters are rioters", "US must interfere the protests" "the protests are all pro-independence" (still, the view could change rapidly). I think such views should be reflected briefly because all the statement are based on state version of the events.
• Differences of the sources. For example, People's Daily is not the same to People's Daily Online. The former is more serious and well-checked [for political view].

I hope these suggestions are helpful when writing such a controversial article. Thank you. Mariogoods (talk) 13:50, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Adding redirects

I have been wondering if we should add a few redirects to this page. What are the other common phrases associated with this topic?

"Hard hat revolution" and "anti-elab protests" ... any others? 65.60.163.223 (talk) 18:01, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Maybe their slogan "Liberate Hong Kong, revolution of our times"? But I'm afraid I never heard of "Hard hat revolution", any source? –Wefk423 (talk) 18:12, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

I've seen it mentioned on Twitter many times: #HardHatRevolution

Just did a quick news search, here is one example: Hong Kong’s quiet and determined ‘hard hat revolution’ is braced for a lurch towards civil war

I wonder if "China extradition bill protest" is a widely used search term as well? Is there any way to get search stats from Wikipedia? 65.60.163.223 (talk) 18:54, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Okay, redirect requests submitted thus far:

• Hard hat revolution
• Anti-ELAB protests
• Anti-elab protests
• China extradition bill protests
• Liberate Hong Kong, revolution of our times
• Liberate Hong Kong revolution of our times

So those were submitted for review, which it said could take a few weeks to process and approve. Any others? 65.60.163.223 (talk) 05:39, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Oh, looks like all of those redirects are working fine now! 65.60.163.223 (talk) 15:55, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Condense into timeline

This article is getting unwieldy, I say we should create an article entitled Timeline of the 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests. Image2012 (talk) 04:02, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

@Image2012: Please see #Creating "List of 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests", a similar idea to yours. –Wefk423 (talk) 05:53, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Although this article will be condensed per the above discussion, I do think an interactive graphical outline or horizontal timeline of some sort would really help illustrate the protests and make the collection of related articles easier to navigate and more readable. 65.60.163.223 (talk) 20:11, 9 August 2019 (UTC)