Talk:2021 Andalucía Open

Requested move 7 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved to 2021 Andalucía Open by WTC7812. – wbm1058 (talk) 03:54, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

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2021 Andalucia Open → ? – I know for sure that the page name must be changed, but I hesitate when it comes to choosing between alternative (a) and alternative (b). The word Andalucia as such is incorrect in any way you look at it –it simply does not exist. The correct and reasonable options are, as far as I understand, only two: (a) 2021 Andalusia Open, and (b) 2021 Andalucía Open. Andalusia is the exonym for this Spanish autonomous community. Andalucía is its endonym. The way I see it, option (a) seems to be the most appropriate. It is in line with the prevailing pattern (so to speak): Vienna Open (instead of Wien Open), Cologne Open (instead of Köln Open), Lisbon Open (instead of Lisboa Open), Serbia Open (instead of Srbija Open) and so on. However, you can also find some odd cases, such as the Open Sud de France (Open South of France) and the Open Castilla y León (Open Castile and León). And what's more: what about the 2021 Andalucía Challenger? And, alas, I also came across the Andalucia Tennis Experience. Thoughts? WTC7812 (talk) 21:38, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, per the ATP website the name is correct as it is now. Same with ESPN and Tennis.com and Tennis World and Sportkeeda. I'm not saying it couldn't be moved to "2012 Andalucía Open", but to say the "Andalucia Open" doesn't exist is wrong. It's probably the most sourced way to spell it, even from Tennis' ruling body. The spelling with an "S" is just plain incorrect. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:44, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for providing your insights. However, I really don't grasp your last assertion. Would you then be in favour of moving the page Geneva Open to Geneve Open? Both Geneva (the exonym) and Genève (the endonym) exist, but Geneve doesn't. Andalucia and Geneve [and Koln (for Cologne/Köln), and Munich (for Munich/München)...] are ortographic absurdities, lingustic eyesores. I stand by what I said: the word Andalucia does not exist. It is as clear as day that it doesn't.

With regards to websites and sources, we may have a look at the tournament's own website (in English), which speaks for itself: no trace of Andalucia there. The ATP website deserves to be considered an authority in tennis-related issues, such as scores, rankings and stats, but in terms of toponyms its say is as substantial as that of every Tom, Dick and Harry. With just a glance you stumble upon inaccuracies, from flatant typos (see Figeras instead of the proper Figueres) to evident mistakes (Roberto Bautista Agut was born in Benlloc –a municipality in the province of Castellón–, as stated by Bautista himself on his official website; nevertheless, the ATP website lists Castellón de la Plana, the capital city of the province, as his birthplace).

You won't find diacritics in any of those websites (ESPN, Tennis.com, etc.). They mechanically turn Andalucía into Andalucia, just as they turn Pablo Carreño Busta into Pablo Carreno Busta. I think we can do better than that here on Wikipedia. WTC7812 (talk) 13:12, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not totally following your train of thought. Geneva Open is what is used in sources just as Andalucia Open seems to be what sources use. We don't make our own sources here, we examine what's used and plop it in. I don't change the spelling of my last name from Kołodziej to Kowodziej just because it matches how is sounds. I changed it to Kolodziej by dropping the strikethru diacritic. For whatever reason we see in sourcing "Andalucia Open" and "Andalucía Open". Both those terms exist whether we want them to or not. Those are our choices. We do not see "Andalusia Open" so we don't use it. And where do you think the ATP gets Agut's birthplace from, and how to spell his name? They get it from the required ITN card every player fills out with the ITF. Perhaps he never changed his birthplace? Stanislaw Wawrinka changed his ITN card to just read "Stan" and the ATP changed his name accordingly. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:54, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Maybe we can agree to disagree on the Andalusia issue. I’d like to place one last thing on the record, though: I did not come up with the term Andalusia. It may sound obvious, but I point this out because while I get what you mean with regards to the spelling of your last name, I don’t think the two cases resemble. In English, Andalucía has been referred to as Andalusia for centuries. The same goes for Catalonia (Catalunya) or Sardinia (Sardegna), for instance.

Would you support moving the article to 2021 Andalucía Open? This is the name used on all the official social media accounts of the tournament: Twitter, Instagram, Facebook. By the way, I am surprised that no other editors have shown up to express their thoughts. I appreciate your involvement. What could increase the number of opinions so that we can make a wide (or a not so wide) consensual choice?

(A minor off-topic digression: Agut is RBA’s second family name; when Spaniards are known by their two surnames, both of them are mentioned, or otherwise only their first family name (there are, of course, some rare exceptions, e.g. José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero). Therefore, RBA is always referred to as Bautista or Bautista Agut. Calling him just Agut sounds as outlandish as calling FAA just Aliassime, or as referring to JMdP as Potro —something is definitely missing. Take it or leave it, of course. I say it with friendly intentions only.) WTC7812 (talk) 22:34, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

I understand and realize that the place is spelled Andalusia in English. We just can't source "Andalusia Open." I also understand about Bautista Agut but when responding informally quickly I will always use the shortest thing I can grasp... sometimes simply BA. But then informally i will always do that. While I will use del Potro or DP, rarely will I ever write Auger-Aliassime... too long for me to bother with unless I am putting it in an article. I will always use Aliassime or AA. I have no issue with it being moved to "2021 Andalucía Open." The spelling of a possible one-time 250-level event probably isn't on a lot of editor's radars. Plus the symbol over the i many won't notice or ever use. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:37, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Thanks once again for your remarks. I guess it may be wise to wait for a couple more days. If no opposition has arisen by Tuesday, I will move the article to 2021 Andalucía Open. Cheers. WTC7812 (talk) 22:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.