Talk:2021 National Bank Open

Requested move 10 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Basically, this is a dispute whether this article should be split into the 2020 and 2021 events, but only the nominator seems to advocate that. I will note that all relevant information about the tournament's fate is already included in this article, so it's not as if the readers are misled. Personally, I'm not sure that articles such as 2020 Wimbledon Championships that amount to "this tournament was scheduled but got canceled" are of much value. No such user (talk) 09:51, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

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2021 Canadian Open (tennis) → 2020 Canadian Open (tennis) – The entire 2020 Canadian Open article was moved to 2021 and then some stuff added to the redirect so it can't be moved back. I went to add something to the 2020 article yesterday and couldn't because of the undiscussed move. There are sources that say it was canceled and sources that say it was postponed. That's semantics... the same thing happened to all tournaments not played. The 2020 version was sponsored by Rogers but not so the 2021 edition. If it was truly postponed there would be two events this year, are there, no. And then 2021 would need to be postponed till 2022, and so on. It's one thing to redirect the 2020 article to 2021, but another to move it. Now if I want to create info for the 2020 event, the history is in the wrong place. This is not what we did to 2020 Wimbledon Championships and 2020 BNP Paribas Open.

We should move this article with its history back to 2020 and create a brand new 2021 article. I tried speedy move but an admin says since it's been moved for a month he considers it stable... so I have to do this formally. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:57, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support move to 2020 Rogers Cup. Per the expiration of Rogers' naming rights and the majority of secondary sources, the 2020 Rogers Cup was cancelled and not postponed due to COVID-19. ViperSnake151  Talk  23:52, 10 April 2021 (UTC)
  • Actually, according to the event organizer's FAQ, the 2020 event's proper name is the 2020 National Bank Open, which they consider postponed. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 05:34, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
    • Sponsors themselves fudge the truth. Actually 2020 was Roger Cup. National Bank started in 2021. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:54, 11 April 2021 (UTC)
      • Answered in my comment below. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 20:33, 15 April 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. Tennis Canada is very clear when events are postponed and when they are cancelled. [1] In the individual postponing announcements for these events, they also take care to describe them as postponed, not cancelled. [2][3][4] The use of "postponement" and not "cancelled" is also supported by reliable sources including TSN/Canadian PressSportsNet/CPCTV/CP, Toronto Sun/Reuters, CityNews, In the FAQ page on the event website, they explicitly answer "Was the 2020 National Bank Open cancelled?" with "No, due to the coronavirus pandemic and following measures imposed by various government officials and the ATP, National Bank Open was postponed until 2021.". By contrast, the 2020 Wimbledon Championships and 2020 BNP Paribas Open were both described by the organizers as cancelled, not postponed, so they can be distinguished. I suspect that this may be for legal reasons, but since the 2021 event page would have to address this anyway, there's no point in having this content duplicated between two pages. The event pages are typically not so long or prose-heavy that splitting off a few paragraphs is necessary. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 05:29, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Wait a minute. Let me get this straight. You as an administrator said no to the speedy move back to "2020 Canadian Open (tennis)" telling me that one month was enough to solidify longstanding. You also tell me it's because the user that moved it to begin with would contest it. That editors agrees to move it back and you are here opposing it???? This is a HUGE conflict of interest from my original request. And how the heck do you know when Canada is very clear on when events are postponed and when they are canceled. Are you a member of everything Canada? And your own links say it was Rogers Cup in 2020. I always start off assuming good faith, but this post has me confused as all get-out. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:54, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

I acted as an administrator in refusing a G6 deletion based on what I knew at the time, which I explained on my talk page. I don't have some vested interest in tennis/sports naming conventions, but when you raised the issue on my talk page, that prompted me to look into the issue in greater detail. Based on that, I know have a much stronger opinion on what proper title should be. I obviously have no intention of closing this discussion, which would obviously be an improper WP:INVOLVED closure.

As for Tennis Canada being clear, you can look at the precise wording they use in their announcements. For example, in the article I linked titled "TENNIS CANADA CANCELS ALL TOURNAMENTS SCHEDULED UP UNTIL AUGUST 31", it includes this passage: Since the beginning of this crisis...we have had to cancel around twenty tournaments of all categories, we have had to postpone the Rogers Cup presented by National Bank in Montreal..., and we have had to restructure our organization...,” said Michael Downey, President and CEO at Tennis Canada. (emphasis added). This is clearly distinguishing tournaments that have been postponed (which at the time was just the Montreal part of the event) and those that have been cancelled, even if the end result is functionally the same. This official distinction is also present in the other links from Tennis Canada, the event organizer, and reliable sources in my comment above.

It was called the Rogers Cup in 2020 because the Rogers naming deal was active. The 2020 event was renamed the 2020 National Bank Open, because that event was officially postponed to 2021, when it would fall under the new naming deal with National Bank. The FAQ I linked in my above comment makes this quite clear. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 20:33, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

All the tennis events do that. When they change sponsors they list all the old events under the new sponsor name. 2020 would have been Rogers Cup. 2021 is National Bank. 2020 was canceled whether you want to get into the semantics of postponed or not. Just like we did for other canceled events. By your reasoning, what happens to the original 2021 event? Postponed till 2022? If you don't do a lot of tennis event editing you may not be aware of all the sponsor or location changes we deal with every year when it comes to tournament names. Even the link you gave is titled "TENNIS CANADA CANCELS ALL TOURNAMENTS SCHEDULED UP UNTIL AUGUST 31" so the terms are interchangeable. This was something that should have been so easy and is now so complicated. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:12, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

This is different though, because the "old" event which normally would have occurred under the previous sponsorship deal is actually officially occurring during the new title sponsorship deal. It seems pretty clear from the FAQ page that the 2021 event is just considered the same as the 2020 event postponed. Of course, this is functionally a cancellation but that's not the official position of the event organizers, likely because of some legal/financial reason we're not privy to. I would guess that is a rare scenario, so it would be more helpful if you could point to an example where another tennis event was postponed and then the title sponsor changed, and even better if the postponement was functionally a cancellation. In any case, I would think that such name changes would ideally be covered in any comprehensive event article. Here, since the 2021 event is also officially the 2020 event postponed, the article would have to cover that, and I don't see a point in duplicating the same content between both articles, especially when neither article is particularly prose heavy.

As for your argument regarding interchangeability, it doesn't work with the quotation in my comment above regarding the men's event. Also, in respect to the men's event the first paragraph after the title in the link says: ...Tennis Canada announced...the cancellation of all of its national and international tournaments scheduled up until August 31...with the exception of the Rogers Cup presented by National Bank in Toronto. (emphasis added). Then later when the men's event was functionally cancelled, they also used "postponement" and the official web page also uses postponement as seen in my links above.---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 00:41, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

ATP POints

Hey, love everyone's work on tennis articles – and adding references to withdrawals etc is so good. Thank you.

Re points for APT 2021 National Bank Open the points are bit incorrect. As per ATP website, players can keep either keep 50% of 2019 or 100% of 2021, and we need to know their 2019 points (not 50% of them). For example Rafael Nadal, who came in with 7815 – defending 1000 points. He didn't play 2021, so will keep 500 points, but his new points will now be 7,315 NOT 7,815 as it was written. I have fixed this for him and Garin. This 50% reduction in total points also goes for other players who are using their 2019 points. Tobyjamesaus (talk) 02:55, 13 August 2021 (UTC)