Talk:Attacks in Russia during the Russian invasion of Ukraine

Splitting proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was not to split. HappyWith (talk) 22:52, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

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I propose that this article be split into two articles: 2022–2023 western Russia airstrikes, to cover most of the original scope of this article, and 2023 western Russia raids, to cover the land incursions by pro-Ukrainian all-Russian militants in summary style (2023 Bryansk Oblast attack, 2023 Belgorod Oblast attack, and the minor other incursions). I think this should be done because the raids aren't that related to the drone and artillery attacks that take up much of this article, and they all have common themes that should be consolidated in one place; eg: the claims of Ukrainian involvement, the motivations all apply to all the incidents. HappyWith (talk) 18:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose This appears to be already split through 2023 Belgorod Oblast incursions and 2023 Bryansk Oblast raid. Creating another article layer on it would be excessive. The overview article could be at current 2022–2023 Western Russia attacks. Brandmeister^talk 18:34, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

• Support There are way to many drone strikes into Russia to put on a page with raids into Russia. Ajhuheu (talk) 10:26, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment: no reason to capitalize western in the proposal.  —Michael Z. 13:04, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

You’re right. Forgot when making the proposal. HappyWith (talk) 21:52, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. Proposal now has lowercase 'w' in "western". HappyWith (talk) 22:51, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose the raids are already covered in their respective articles; perhaps if they continue to occur a split would be warranted but this serves as a nice overview article at the moment. On a separate note, would 'airstrikes' be the correct title for the artillery/drone attacks? Not an expert on the terminology but you typically hear airstrikes being carried out by aircraft but I could be mistaken about its scope. Yeoutie (talk) 01:38, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

  There are actually several minor raids that aren't covered in either article, and would be serviced by a split. That's a big part of the reason for the proposal - it gives a centralized place for the information that doesn't also include every single airstrike.

  Addressing your second point, I believe an airstrike can refer to an attack by a drone, but you're right about the artillery point. Not sure what the right terminology would be, but I think "airstrikes" works well enough. If other editors have a better idea for terminology, let me know. HappyWith (talk) 22:50, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose The article is currently a short and list-like anyway. The overhaul it needs is a consolidation of all those single sentences on single attacks into a more coherent article body. However, I wouldn't be opposed to having sections on airstrikes and raids within the article then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cortador (talk • contribs) 11:02, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

  The sections proposal is actually a good idea. I think I'll do that for now, since it seems like the proposal as a whole isn't gaining momentum. HappyWith (talk) 17:41, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Comment - This article should probably be updated before we decide anything. There's nothing here after 30 May.

Charles Essie (talk) 17:23, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per commenters above. Saying that, this page can be renamed to Timeline of 2022–2023 western Russia attacks. This is really a "timeline". My very best wishes (talk) 15:59, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose but propose to rename article 2022-2023 Ukrainian attacks on Russian territory Sgnpkd (talk) 09:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose can either be covered in the Belgorod Oblast incursions article, or are pretty irrelevant and there's few info about them (e.g. incursion at Plekhovo), the exception being the Bryansk Oblast raid which can cover any raids before the Belgorod Oblast ones. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:10, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 24 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. There was not a consensus on 25 June. It is now 25 July, and there has been no further discussion, despite three relists. (closed by non-admin page mover) {{replyto|SilverLocust}} (talk) 09:37, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

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2022–2023 western Russia attacks → Western Russia attacks (2022–present) – Brackets are preferred, per consensus in this RM. We also sidestep the issue of whether or not to capitalize "Western". 90.255.6.219 (talk) 12:39, 24 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 15:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Sennecaster (Chat) 00:05, 11 July 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 07:56, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

If the province/oblast/whatever is named “Western Russia” then western should be capitalized, but since it’s the west of Russia it should be lowercase. The change to Present should only be if Ukraine is still attacking western Russia. CubanoBoi (talk) 17:36, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

@CubanoBoi Do you agree with the part about brackets though? If yes, we could consider European Russia attacks (2022–present), potentially. And yes, the attacks are ongoing. 90.255.6.219 (talk) 16:59, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

That RM was effectively undone by a later RM that removed the brackets and changed the article name to simply "Russian invasion of Ukraine". Besides, isn't the bracket notation supposed to be used when there are other articles with similar names, eg. "Western Russia attacks (1563–1622)"? There aren't other articles with names like that. HappyWith (talk) 17:39, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

@HappyWithWhatYouHaveToBeHappyWith What about simply Western Russia attacks? 90.255.6.219 (talk) 20:50, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm honestly not sure. There have definitely been attacks in western Russia before, but they don't have articles devoted to them. I'm going to wait until an editor with more knowledge of the relevant policy and history weighs in. HappyWith (talk) 20:52, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: There are multiple suggestions to where to move the article, but no consensus on where to move it. Focusing the conversation there may be helpful. Sennecaster (Chat) 00:05, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Russia has been notified of this discussion. Sennecaster (Chat) 00:05, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Ukraine has been notified of this discussion. Sennecaster (Chat) 00:05, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Military history has been notified of this discussion. Sennecaster (Chat) 00:05, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NPOV

This article consistently just sticks to citing Russian accounts of these events, and while it partially attributes a lot of the statements with words like "allegedly" and "reportedly", it never gives the Ukrainian or Western sides of the story - which is bizarre, considering that Russia has consistently lied far more often and contradicted itself throughout the war.

Example: When it's talking about the Bryansk oblast raid, it says [It] was reported that an Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance group made an incursion into Russian territory [...] The saboteurs allegedly fired into civilians, killing two adults and injuring two children, including one 11-year-old child.. There is no mention of what the legionnaires themselves said to explain what they were doing, nor their denial of killing any civilians. It repeatedly calls them "Ukrainian saboteurs", and uses very vague language like "it was reported that X" to talk about statements from notoriously unreliable Russian state media that imply that the info is instead coming from a neutral independent actor.

Not to mention, there's also a lack of attribution of a lot of extreme claims from Russian government-aligned sources in general. I would fix this myself if I had more time - and I do plan to do a little fixing later - but I'm leaving this message here for other editors who could help, since it's a pretty long article. HappyWith (talk) 20:45, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh yes, absolutely. We have a large page Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and we do not want to include unconfirmed and not notable claims. I would suggest do not include alleged events unless there is a confirmation that such events did actually happen, and this is something notable, i.e. it was debated in several independent sources. For example, The governor of Russia’s Belgorod region has said that Ukraine fired cluster munitions at a village near the Ukrainian border on Friday, but that there were no casualties or damage. [1]. How do we know this claim was true, i.e. the Ukrainian forces indeed fired cluster munitions at the village? "no casualties or damage" does sound strange. Any confirmation other than a claim by a single person? And if they did it, was it something notable, which is by definition something debated in a number of RS? My very best wishes (talk) 16:05, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

In a quick pass, I have no disagreements with anything that either of you said, except for use of the word "alleged". It's thoroughly proper to use the word "alleged". I'd start editing this article myself & then remove its NPOV message, but it's extended-protected. So some other time. Remover9 (talk) 18:30, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 20 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) The Night Watch (talk) 23:32, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

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2022–2023 western Russia attacks → Attacks in Russia during the Russian invasion of Ukraine – There's no reason why this article should only cover attacks in western Russia. It makes more sense to just cover all attacks in internationally recognized Russian territory here. It's debatable whether some of the incidents in this article, like the Moscow drone attacks, are even in western Russia - the article for Moscow describes the city as being in Central Russia. This should also solve the issue with the capitalization of "western" that has been argued over on the talk page. HappyWith (talk) 22:01, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

• Strong support per nom. "Attacks" sounds a bit informal but I can't think of a better word. "Military incidents" would not be appropriate because of for example Ukrainian drone attacks against business centers in Moscow. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:11, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

  I understood that at least one office tower that was hit twice had military targets.  —Michael Z. 18:13, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Support. This is an open set of attacks that hasn’t as yet ended in 2023, and there’s no reason to exclude some attacks by restricting the scope to a vaguely defined “western Russia.”  —Michael Z. 18:16, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Support per above Parham wiki (talk) 18:27, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 19 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 16:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

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Attacks in Russia during the Russian invasion of Ukraine → Attacks in Russia during the Russo-Ukrainian War (2022–present) – The present title is semantically confused, and fails WP:PRECISE, WP:CONCISE and WP:NATURALNESS. The attacks listed in this article are logically part of the 'Russo-Ukrainian War', not the 'Russian invasion of Ukraine', as they were neither carried out by Russia nor occurred in Ukraine. My presumption is that the current title is some kind of WP:NATURAL disambiguation, to ensure that the scope of this article is limited to 2022 and beyond. This is necessary because of the existence of articles like Shelling of Donetsk, Rostov Oblast, that date back to 2014. Therefore, I propose Attacks in Russia during the Russo-Ukrainian War (2022–present), using a title that actually makes sense combined with parenethical disambiguation. Another possibility is expanding the scope of the article to the full extent of the war from its start in 2014, and renaming it Attacks in Russia during the Russo-Ukrainian War. I see both as acceptable options, and a great improvement on the present muddle. RGloucester — ☎ 11:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - The attacks listed in this article are a response to the ongoing Russian invasion of Ukraine. There were no Ukrainian attacks in Russia before the invasion, aside from the accidental shelling you mentioned. The proposed name would cloud this link to the invasion and imply that the attacks have been going on since 2014. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 12:45, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The proposed title includes parenthetical disambiguation to prevent the confusion you mention from occurring. The point is, logically speaking, attacks in Russia by Ukraine cannot be considered part of a 'Russian invasion of Ukraine'. Semantically, it does not make any sense. RGloucester — ☎ 21:19, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

I understand your argument, that they're not part of a Russian invasion because they're not being carried out by Russia. But they're a direct response to the invasion, the same way the Ukrainian counteroffensives were responses to the invasion. They're counter-attacks. Anyway, the current name doesn't say they're "part of" Russia's military operation, but that they're taking place "during" the invasion. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 08:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose there's so reason to believe that accidental shelling would be confused with this alter incursions—blindlynx 20:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

  worst case a hatnote will do—blindlynx 22:41, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose As the lead of the article states, the scope of this article is "attacks in mainland Russia as a result of the Russian invasion of Ukraine". Thus it makes sense to make the connection between these attacks and the invasion apparent in the title, as the current title does. Gödel2200 (talk) 13:53, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: Accidental shelling and planned invasions are completely different events. Waqar💬 15:05, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.