Talk:Masalit massacres (2023–present)

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to not merge

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Proposed merge of Darfur genocide with 2023 Darfur genocide

Article currently has one source and should simply be an addition to the existing article as an additional section. Marleeashton (talk) 02:46, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose this isnt a section o the genocide, its a new beginning. Escalation in violence only begun this year. Lukt64 (talk) 03:30, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: Whole different war, huge massacres and the escalation was all this year. Subaru2000 (talk) 14:35, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Massive escalation, clearly distinct from what happened before. Article should be expanded, not deleted. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 16:22, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Rename to Masalit genocide. Most of the genocide nomenclatures refer to the Masalit, instead of all ethnic groups of Darfur as a whole such as in the 2000's genocide. Jebiguess (talk) 05:20, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

support this but let's put it to vote once the #Requested move 12 November 2023 is closed FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: this article is about the recent events and far different from the killing during the Darfur war FuzzyMagma (talk) 09:05, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: The scale is not quite the same as in 2003. Borgenland (talk) 11:26, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 12 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Maddy from Celeste (WAVEDASH) 18:48, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

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2023 Masalit genocide → 2023 Masalit massacres – Events can only be termed a genocide in wikivoice, per the WP:NPOV policy, if there is a consensus in sources that they are genocide. So far, the majority of sources are calling it "mass killing", "killings", "massacres", "massacre", "summary execution", "ethnically driven killings", "atrocities" etc. The current title is not the WP:COMMONNAME and does not satisfy the criteria in WP:POVTITLE. (t · c) buidhe 07:06, 12 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. EggRoll97 ^(talk) 00:32, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose The sources you cite use these words to refer to the individual massacres happening, not for the event as a whole. Your first source explains that the latest atrocities are part of a wider campaign by the RSF and its allied militias to eradicate the non-Arab Masalit tribe from West Darfur, according to activists and survivors, and that the governor of West Darfur, Khamis Abubbakr, [...] described the killings in his region as a “genocide”. ChaotıċEnby(talk) 08:01, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

A lot of events are called a genocide by political leaders in an attempt to gain attention for them. Most of these events never gain a consensus that they are in fact genocide (see the research covered in the book The Problems of Genocide). Wikipedia is supposed to follow, not lead, on these designations. (t · c) buidhe 14:52, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose comment: see the 2023 Masalit genocide#Reactions section FuzzyMagma (talk) 10:44, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Support The two sources given in the lead para do not support genocide. The Economist has it in the title but the article content does not support it, see WP:HEADLINES. Can consider Masalit genocide accusation(s) if that can be adequately sourced. Selfstudier (talk) 15:22, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support - The majority of sources avoid the use of “genocide”. The few that might are not enough for us to use the term in Wikivoice. Blueboar (talk) 16:16, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per FuzzyMagma. This article has some substance contributing to the genocide allegations. Jebiguess (talk) 19:34, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support, labelling an event as a genocide is a very strong claim. "Genocide" has a specific meaning, and whether its meaning can be assigned to a particular act or series of acts is often a matter of legal and scholarly debate. en.wiki should not be pre-empting that debate on a current event in a WP:YESPOV assertion (unless we are reflecting a very common noun or moniker, which in this case as a descriptive title we are not). A well-written article laying out in an impartial tone the facts of the matter, as well as reflecting key opinions from reliable sources, should allow the reader to come to their own assessment on the matter. CMD (talk) 01:51, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Comment we could rename it to Allegations of genocide of Masalit during the War in Sudan (2023) similar to the pages for Ukraine and Palestine. Jebiguess (talk) 20:05, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I oppose this suggestion. Those two are very debated and politicized. They're the exception. We shouldn't be making these pages to address all the claims that X thing is genocide. Such things are very common in nationalistic historiography. All this without intention of belittling these massacres. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 22:11, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Here's the thing: the ones alleging the situation is a genocide is the United Nations. Josep Borrell warned of a genocide, experts on the topic like Cameron Hudson have called the situation ethnic cleansing, and the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights equated the situation to the 2003 genocide. The original whistleblower of the Darfur genocide also called this one a genocide as well.

The Janjaweed themselves have also stated they are committing ethnic cleansing. By referring to the page as the 2023 Masalit massacres, it downplays the coordinated attempts by the RSF and Janjaweed in wiping out the Masalit. If not allegations, Ethnic cleansing of Masalit during the War in Sudan (2023) works just as well. Jebiguess (talk) 05:52, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Whether or not there might be scope for an article on allegations, it can't be this one as there needs to be a page for the actual events the allegations refer to. CMD (talk) 07:31, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

agree with CMD. Let's build the article first and discuss the naming after, the sources normally decides the naming and not the other way around. For now the most glaring issue is "genocide" vs. "massacre" FuzzyMagma (talk) 17:03, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Support - genocide is a term that can't be used lightly (doing so would be against WP:NPOV). As it stands now, there doesn't appear to be a sufficient use of the term to override NPOV. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:12, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.