Talk:Fall of the Fascist regime in Italy

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 February 2019 and 3 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jordankelseyh.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 21:03, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 28 July 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Jenks24 (talk) 14:22, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

---

25 Luglio → ??? – "25 Luglio" is not the common name for this series of events in English historiography—or Italian, to my knowledge. A descriptive title would be better, perhaps Grandi motion or Fall of Mussolini. Srnec (talk) 02:00, 28 July 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 12:56, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• On the face of it, support Fall of Mussolini. - In ictu oculi (talk) 02:42, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose This is the common name in Italian, so common that "25 Luglio" became a synonim for this happenings. The main work about this subject, from Gianfranco Bianchi, is "25 Luglio: crollo di un regime". The 25 luglio for Italy is like the 18 Brumaire for France. There are several examples of happenings in this period which are described in original language: for example: the Kristallnacht. As far as I know, there is no common name in English to describe what happened in Italian politics between the beginning of 1943 and the 26 July 1943, and I don't think that we should invent one. "Fall of Mussolini" is ambiguous, since he fell twice: the first one in 1943, the second in 1945. Moreover, the new title is reductive: the article describes also the fall of the Italian Fascism, which was a consequence not wished by most of the people which were against the "Duce".Alex2006 (talk) 04:21, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support WP:UE and WP:COMMONNAME. "Fall of Mussolini" looks nearly 3x as common as "25 Luglio" in Google Books (without even bothering to account for the fact that most sources using the former, and far fewer sources using the latter, are in English) and is seen in the titles of various English works from major publishers. In contrast I can find only a small number of English works which use the date reference in their titles [1][2] 58.176.246.42 (talk) 05:45, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Comment: "Fall of Mussolini" is ambiguous, since he is fallen twice: the first one in 1943 ,the second in 1945. Alex2006 (talk) 06:24, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

That seems a bit pedantic. In 1943 Mussolini fell. In 1945 the Italian Social Republic fell and Mussolini was hanged. Srnec (talk) 02:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per MOS:RETAIN as I am not convinced about the alternatives. Fall of Mussolini would be appropriate, but as pointed above is a bit ambiguous and the phrase was used in larger contexts which include the 1945 events. Grandi motion is not used enough to fulfil recognizability and naturalness principles, it is not the WP:COMMONNAME for the event nor in Italian nor in English. Cavarrone 16:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
• Other options are First fall of Mussolini (used by Philip Morgan) and Final meeting of the Grand Council of Fascism. "24 Luglio" is not used in English. It is only used in citing Italian works. —Srnec (talk) 02:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Comment: The scope of the article is much broader than the "Final meeting of the Grand Council of Fascism". Alex2006 (talk) 08:22, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 13 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Apologies for doing this again, but despite the level of support for the proposed title, the concern that this move would significantly narrow the article's scope is a serious one and it has not been addressed. This is an unusual step, having already had a recent RM, but I would say there should be no prejudice against a new RM discussing the merits of Alex2006's and Pincrete's proposed titles. Jenks24 (talk) 16:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

---

25 Luglio → Dismissal and arrest of Mussolini – "25 Luglio" is just a date. While some events are known primarily by their date, this isn't one of them (in English). Almost every instance of this Italian term in English comes in a citation to an Italian work. It is almost never used on its own as a term of art. There is no evidence that it ever "denotes" several weeks' worth of events, as the intro claims. The Italian Wikipedia prefers it:Ordine del giorno Grandi ("Grandi's order of the day"). Srnec (talk) 19:02, 13 August 2015 (UTC) Relisted Calidum 03:13, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Oppose. And many English-speakers would not recognise "Luglio" as a form of "July". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 22:12, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

An alternative would be 25 July 1943 in Italy (but the article is about more than just that one day). Srnec (talk) 23:42, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Comment The article on Italian Wikipedia deals mainly with the last meeting of the Gran Consiglio, so its scope is much narrower. Anyway, in the meantime I changed my mind (although I wrote the article and named it :-)) because I realized that with this title it is very difficult to find the article for English speaking people consulting Wikipedia and searching for these events. Why don't rename it to Fall of Mussolini (1943)? So we could eliminate the ambiguity with his definitive fall in 1945. Alex2006 (talk) 05:21, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

• Support dismissal and arrest of Mussolini as it seems a well-centered choice to summon the events. --Cavarrone 06:39, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support dismissal and arrest of Mussolini will do. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:44, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Again, the scope of this article is wider. This is not only about the dismissal and the arrest of the "Duce", but also about the end of the PNF, that is the actual end of the fascist regime. As I wrote above, I am now convinced that we should change the article's name, but until now all the proposed alternatives looks to me worse than the original. Alex2006 (talk) 11:47, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Before settling on "Dismissal and arrest of Mussolini", I was going to propose "Fall of the Fascist government in Italy", but I assumed you'd object on the grounds that there were two Fascist governments that fell in Italy (in 1943 and 1945). Since Mussolini was incontestably dismissed only once, I settled on this title. Srnec (talk) 13:47, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Oh-oh...I think that you missed my comment above. :-( I thought that we could overcome this problem postponing the year, having something like "Fall of Fascism in Italy (1943)" or "Fall of Italian Fascism (1943)". Actually, Mussolini fell twice, but for most of the Italian historians the Fascism fell in 1943. Afterwards Mussolini never thought about restoring the PNF, and the RSI was only a German puppet state whose power was limited and confined to a area of central-northern Italy shrinking with time.Alex2006 (talk) 14:31, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
• Suggestion how about Fall of the Italian Government 1943 or Fall of the Italian Fascist Government 1943. I know nothing about the incident, but find 'end of Fascism' or titles that focus on 'il Duce' himself problematic, and the second risk being confused with his eventual death. I would suggest whatever is chosen to include the year to avoid confusion with 'end of war' or other situations. Pincrete (talk) 16:00, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support the original Dismissal and arrest of Mussolini name. ONR (talk) 06:57, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
• Support variant form Dismissal and arrest of Benito Mussolini. If this was about, for example, John F. Kennedy, you would not likely name the article "Dismissal and arrest of Kennedy" or "Dismissal and arrest of JFK", but would use the fuller name by which he is commonly known. — the Man in Question (in question) 23:44, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Oppose I don't agree. Kennedy points to a redirect, since there are a lot of notable Kennedys, Mussolini points to Benito Mussolini. Benito Mussolini is the Mussolini for antonomasia, so there is no need to insert also the name. Alex2006 (talk) 14:53, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comment on renaming

Hallo all, since I think that now there is consensus about changing the name of the article, I propose to discuss candidates for the new name here and then to change it. Please give me a couple of days to have a look to the Italian bibliography about the subject in order to find a valid alternative. Alex2006 (talk) 18:45, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Valid alternatives have been proposed. What exactly are you looking for? Srnec (talk) 19:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

I didn't vote in the original RM, but I think that "Dismissal and arrest of Mussolini" still sounds fine, and there'd be no need to narrow the scope. All of the build-up is still relevant. (Moreover, that buildup is arguably not included by "25 Luglio" anyway, so it'll be no worse.) SnowFire (talk) 21:03, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

For whatever it's worth, the Italian article has since changed to "Fall of fascism", making the current 25 Luglio title even more awkward when it isn't even considered the main name in Italian. The only asterisk about using the Italian WP title is that it suggests a more final fall, when the Italian Social Republic would still exist. "Dismissal and arrest of Mussolini" still works IMO, as would perhaps "Overthrow of Mussolini" which would more clearly include events prior to July. Any thoughts? @Srnec: @Alessandro57: SnowFire (talk) 01:43, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Hallo Snowfall, and thanks for writing! I think that, following de Felice, "Fall of Fascism" would be the right title: in fact, I don't think that a regime whose existence depended exclusively on the German weapons and whose territory was limited to a continuously shrinking part of Italy could be identified with the Fascist regime before 25 July 1943. Moreover, both the dismissal and the arrest of Mussolini were also "not final", so also the other two title have the same problem. In summary, if we want to change the title, I think that "Fall of Fascism" would be the right title. Alex2006 (talk) 04:43, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

I disagree. "Fall of Fascism" is too grandiose. First, the term "fascism", while it would be nice if it were restricted to Italy the way "nazism" is restricted to Germany, isn't. So the proposed title is probably confusing for a lot of people. Second, it wasn't really the fall of Fascism. It was the dismissal (and arrest) of Mussolini. The regime continued with the same laws as before and in the same war for over a month. Mussolini's dismissal was final—he was never prime minister of the Kingdom of Italy again. Srnec (talk) 14:29, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Alex: While the regimes were different, it was still in Italy, still identified itself as fascist, and moreover, the Germans themselves were, broadly construed, fascist (in the sense of all the totalitarian movements being "fascist" in casual English). So it's not unreasonable to say that fascism in some form hadn't entirely fallen yet, even if it wasn't in good health. That said, I agree that at the very least, "fall of fascism" should probably be in the lede at least as an alternative title, and it's certainly better than 25 Luglio.

Srnec: Well, in English WP, it would clearly be "Fall of fascism in Italy" or the like for clarity's sake if we wanted to use that, similar to "American Revolutionary War" over "Revolutionary War".

Both: Any thoughts on "Overthrow of Mossolini"? I think that addresses the somewhat spurious complaint in the original RM that "Dismissal and arrest" doesn't include the lead-up plotting (for all that, uh, 25 Luglio doesn't either...). 15:12, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

I still prefer Fall of Mussolini. "Fall of Fascism" just sounds over the top given the nature of the events. A PM was dismissed, a new one appointed, nothing in the war situation or in Italy's relations with its allies changed. The abolition of the Fascist Party and the Grand Council occurred a little later, practically as an afterthought. The real cataclysm was the armistice of September. I could accept "Fall of Fascism" because it's an improvement, but in that case the article needs to be beefed up regarding events after July 25. Srnec (talk) 01:10, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Hallo Srnec, Fascism fell on 25-26 July 1943. The PNF was disbanded by Badoglio few days later, the MVSN came under the command of generals of the army. Many Gerarchi were imprisoned, a few, like Ettore Muti, were killed, others escaped. Badoglio's government was a military dictatorship with some ministers being technicians (mainly prefetti). The attempt of having some fascists (like Grandi as foreign minister) in the government was discouraged by the allies. From which sources did you read that Fascism lasted until 8 September? Said that, I would prefer "Fall of Italian Fascism". As second choice "Fall of Mussolini". Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 06:51, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Fascism did indeed fall on 25–26 July 1943... but then it was re-established on 23 September in the north. I do not understand how "Fall of Fascism" is acceptable, but "Fall of Mussolini" is not. Was Mussolini's second regime less Fascist? In any case, there is a clear consensus that Fall of Fascism is a better title than the current one. Srnec (talk) 22:11, 6 November 2016 (UTC)

Philip Morgan's book The Fall of Mussolini has a chapter titled "First Fall of Mussolini". Srnec (talk) 01:26, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Belated, but @Alessandro57:, I think you should probably just move it yourself, since you did write the article originally, after all. I can file another RM if we want, but it seems everyone agrees that there are better terms than "25 Luglio", even in the original RM, but picking which one is hard. You should just flip a coin and pick one. SnowFire (talk) 20:38, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

OK @SnowFire:, give me time until this weekend (I just come back home from Rome), and I will do a proposal. Thanks, Alex2006 (talk) 20:48, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Hallo @SnowFire:, I looked again all my (Italian) books, and I must say that the events described in this article are almost unanimously described as "Fall of Fascism" or "Fall of the fascist regime": for example, Gianfranco Bianchi's seminal book bears the title: "Perchè e come cadde il fascismo: 25 Luglio, crollo di un regime", while the chapter devoted to the 25th of July in De Felice's Mussolini is entitled as "Il 25 Luglio: crollo del regime e fine politica di Mussolini". That's why I support the following titles:

• Fall of Italian Fascism;
• Fall of the Italian fascist regime;
• Fall of the fascist regime in Italy;

The objection that fascism resurrected in September 1943 according to me does not apply, since a) the RSI was a puppet state of the Nazis, b) Mussolini politically became the ghost of what he had been until 25th July, being able to rule only with the support of the German army, and c) many of the structures of the Fascism (in primis the PNF) were not restored. Moreover, most of the Italian historians agree that Fascism in Italy finished on that day of July. Anyway, if someone has still thoughts about this "ambiguity", we can add the year in brackets (1943) to the title. Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 17:08, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Sounds good to me, if that's what the sources use. We'll just have to deal with the ambiguity in there being two falls of fascism. Rather than a year disambiguator, I think a hatnote would suffice; "This article is about the fall of fascism in the Kingdom of Italy. For the 1945 end of the fascist collaborator Italian Social Republic, see Liberation Day (Italy)." SnowFire (talk) 20:13, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Of those, I'd vote for "Fall of the Fascist regime in Italy" (with capital-F Fascist), although I still think this is more ambiguous than the titles proposed in the RMs. We could go with "Fall of the Fascist regime in the Kingdom of Italy", but that's getting wordy. I don't like the idea of a year in brackets unless we're going to have an identically titled article with a different year in brackets—and we're not. For the record, caduta di Mussolini does not seem rare in Italian. Srnec (talk) 04:11, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Well @SnowFire: and @Srnec:, let's go for "Fall of the Fascist regime in Italy"! I will add the note too. Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 17:09, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Language

The English of the article is in bad need of an overhaul. Could a native speaker please do the job? Thanks.14:42, 24 December 2016 (UTC)

Too long

Why is there a description of the size and shape of the table the grand council met at and the chandelier in the room? This is totally irrelevant to the article. Maybe someone would want to know what Venezia had for dinner that night? Unless someone objects, I'm going to delete a lot of this needless prose. briardew (talk) 21:52, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

Maybe to help set the tone for the situation? I don't know what rule it violates, and it's sourced. So removing it wouldn't serve much of a purpose. ShimonChai (talk) 18:28, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

It can be removed because it is superfluous to the article/encyclopedic purpose of Wikipedia. If someone is interested in that level of detail, they can further review the article's sources and this article is full of citations to help. It is too detailed for Wikipedia's purpose, and I plan to condense that information appropriately to make it digestible. The details are very interesting, but for the sake of balance and readability, they are better implemented in a more strategic manner. WP:TMI and WP:TPA are both helpful here. Jordankelseyh (talk) 04:48, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

The meeting in Feltre

Struggling to come to terms with the concept of Mussolini as a shy man, I have replaced this text with material from another source, which carries the same sense. Clivemacd (talk) 23:15, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Editing Project

Howdy! I will be editing this article as part of a student project. Before doing so, I would like to outline what I plan to work on:

• Make the article readable/digestible by reorganizing information into appropriately named subheadings
• Delete superfluous and irrelevant information--the article is much longer than it should be/needs to be
• The article is hard to follow for someone without prior knowledge of this topic, and I feel like breaking it up into easier to understand sections could help
• Rewording the article to sound encyclopedic and less like an essay is the major task at hand

I also had a few questions: Are statements like the one about Hitler monologuing considered non-neutral? Also, does anyone know about the sources used for this article? Most of them are relatively old Italian books and I presume they are reliable, but the article might benefit from a source that is online or in English for the purpose of verifying information.

I plan to draft in my user sandbox, so feel free to check that out. Any major work I plan on doing I will outline on here first. Looking forward to working with you all Jordankelseyh (talk) 19:05, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

OK. Srnec (talk) 00:27, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Renaming "Losers and done for"

Hello,

I wanted to see what everyone thought about renaming the section "Losers and done for". I think it should be renamed because the purpose of a heading is to provide a natural and precise description of what the following section is about. A heading also should not contain a citation (according to WP:MOS and WP:CS). For those who do not read the reference attached to the section name, "Losers and done for" would be lacking context, especially since it is not mentioned at any other point in the article or that section. If there is an appropriate spot within the article to discuss the phrase, it might make it a more appropriate header? I do think it is an interesting pun that is worth mentioning; I just don't know where.

The text in "Losers and done for" covers a large scope of information, so I had a hard time coming up with a potential name. The best I could come up with would be somewhere along the lines of "The Reich, the reign and militant government" or "Plans for Italy, the King, and Mussolini", both of which don't feel like the best rename but could be a step in the right direction. A good bulk of that section is about Germany moving forward with their plan to control Italy and about Grandi, so if anyone has any ideas for a name please let me know. Jordankelseyh (talk) 23:18, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

"From the loss of Africa to the invasion of Sicily"? Srnec (talk) 00:34, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

@Srnec: What do you think of "The loss of Africa and Grandi's involvement"? This section is where we really get a sense of how Dino Grandi will come to be involved. The header for the following section ("The landing in Sicily accelerates the crisis") can be shortened to "The landing in Sicily" because it is currently a full sentence, and I do not want to make the two redundant since the Sicily invasion is addressed more in that section! Or it could just be "The fall of Tunis" or "The loss of Tunis" since that is the main idea motivating much of the information in that section I believe. Jordankelseyh (talk) 02:20, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

To Future Editors

This article still has room for improvement!

• The lead is relatively short (but really concise and well written) for such a long article, and leads should not contain citations (WP:MOSLEAD) but I wasn't comfortable just deleting the citations.
• If someone could review the article for the story tag to see if that is ready to be removed, I would really appreciate it. I was not confident enough to remove the tag myself, but I feel like the article is on the path toward having it removed in the near future.
• Lastly, the abbreviation tag I am guessing is referring to the OdG? I did not have enough or could not find enough information to supplement correcting that. I am not sure if the abbreviation just needs to be better explained or if it should be typed out each time it is mentioned.

These are just things to think about when moving forward! Best of luck to those editing; it is a very thorough, well sourced article! Jordankelseyh (talk) 20:17, 18 March 2019 (UTC)