Talk:Istanbul pogrom

Lede change

The lede goes into too much detail about the responsible parts that planned the pogrom: The riots were orchestrated by Tactical Mobilization Group, the seat of Operation Gladio's Turkish branch; the Counter-Guerrilla, and National Security Service, the precursor of today's National Intelligence Organization. A non-Turkish speaker will certainly not understand that the pogrom was planned by the Turkish government. Thus a more simple version is neccesary for this part: "it had been carried out by Turkish agents under orders from the Turkish government" per [[1]] or slightly more precise: orchestrated by the government of Turkish Prime Minister Adnan Menderes. by same source.Alexikoua (talk) 20:57, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

I think the main implication conveyed there is that a NATO-founded organization was responsible, not only the Turkish government. Prinsgezinde (talk) 13:08, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Is Gladio info relevant, or just a red herring?

Gladio is mentioned very prominently in the lead. Is anyone suggesting that the CIA or other Gladio-related agencies had anything to do with the events? If not, it should be removed from the lead, where it acts as a red herring smartly placed there by late apologists of the pogrom. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 09:44, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

I appears that's a red herring. It would be also helpful to state that this was also organized by the rulling party in Turkey.Alexikoua (talk) 10:34, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Clarification on the First Paragraph

I searched the citation for clarification on, quote, "The Turkish press, conveying the news in Turkey, was silent about the arrest and instead insinuated that Greeks had set off the bomb", in the first paragraph of the article. Could someone provide a quote from the cited source that substantiates this claim? I will be fixing this. Thank you. Borab00 (talk) 04:06, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

"Fascist"/"fascistic"

@TimothyBlue recently reverted @Cannotpick's edit changing the translation of the word faşizan, claiming that the edit was "factually incorrect". I could see an argument claiming problems with the edit on a permissibility-of-translation/WP:OR basis, but purely from a linguistic perspective, faşizan is better translated as fascistic; that is not "factually incorrect". Turkish already has a (much more common) word for fascist-as-an-adjective; faşist. If fascist was meant, Erdoğan could have simply said "Bu aslında faşist bir yaklaşımın neticesiydi." Meanwhile, faşizan is defined, in various dictionaries ([2][3]), to denote something of fascist tendencies; something resembling fascism. His wording is much more careful (I assume because of sensibilities toward the early Republican government) than what the English translation entails. Uness232 (talk) 15:14, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I left a message on the editors talk page User talk:Cannotpick#Discussion on talk page. I think sources eg [4] show the original was the correct translation.  // Timothy :: talk  15:21, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I can see no linguistic argument for rendering the word faşizan as equivalent to faşist; WP:RS dictionaries (and the Turkish Language Association) also demonstrate the difference in meaning. Kubbealtı, for example, defines faşizan (loan from French fascisant) as "Fascist-adjacent, fascistic [faşistçe]". Faşist (loan from French fasciste) is simply defined as "An adherent or supporter of fascism"; equivalent to the English term fascist. These words are different in Turkish, and dictionaries support this distinction; they are not synonyms.

If your argument is that we can not use a different word than what the sources that translated the text use, despite the mistranslation, I find more credence in that argument. But fascist is a mistranslation of faşizan, plain and simple. There's simply no linguistic case to be made for fascist when a word like fascistic exists. Uness232 (talk) 17:50, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Although the sources you gave translating Erdoğan's statements into English did translate the word as fascist as you said, it would be rational to just go to the statement in its original language here. Erdoğan used the word "faşizan" which is a loanword from the French "fascisant". According to the Cambridge Dictionary and the Collins Dictionary, the English counterpart to "fascisant" is "fascistic". In cases like this, basing the wording in the article on the original language rather than any faulty translation is the reasonable path to follow and as far as I know doesn't violate any of Wikipedia's guidelines. Cannotpick (talk) 19:27, 22 January 2024 (UTC)