Talk:A. G. Sulzberger

Requested move 25 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 02:48, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

---

A. G. Sulzberger → A.G. Sulzberger – On behalf of The New York Times Company as part of my work at Beutler Ink, I'd like to submit a request to move the A. G. Sulzberger article to A.G. Sulzberger, per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Initials, which says, "An initial is capitalized and is followed by a full point (period) and a space (e.g. J. R. R. Tolkien), unless: the person demonstrably has a different, consistently preferred style for his or her own name; and an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that variant style for that person." You can find appearances of both in secondary coverage, so I won't cherry pick here, but even just glancing at the titles of the sources already used as inline citations within the article, you'll see "A.G." appears more frequently than "A. G." Sulzberger himself prefers "A.G." and, per my disclosure, I am making this request on his behalf. Thanks for your consideration. Inkian Jason (talk) 20:49, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Randy Kryn (talk) 02:22, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Arthur Gregg Sulzberger, cannot understand why that caveat is in MOS. Needs to be removed. And styles are evidently not consistent. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:28, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

• But since the language is there, and has been used previously, opposing this request based on existing MOS language is putting the cart on top the horse and sending it back to the barn to be re-shoed. If we take Inkian Jason at their word then Sulzberger requests the change as his preferred usage, which is covered by MOS. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:44, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom and per WP:ABOUTSELF. SnowFire (talk) 17:06, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. In order for the exception to apply, we'd need sources that use "A.G." even though their style guide would prescribe something different ("A. G." or "AG", for example). Such sources are available for k.d. lang and the other examples listed in the exception clause. If Mr Sulzberger's chosen format does have sources, then the move is justified, but we'll need to see them. Tevildo (talk) 18:44, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

  @Tevildo: Where does MOS:INITIALS or WP:INITS say that? --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 02:52, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

  • MOS:INITIALS says "an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that variant style", with 'variant' being the operative word. If a publication normally uses unspaced initials, then "A.G." isn't a variant as far as that publication is concerned. Tevildo (talk) 10:07, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

    @Tevildo: I interpret that differently. In my opinion, "that variant style" refers to variation from the standard Wikipedia style, not variation from a source's style. I think this because "that variant style" comes right after (and thus, I believe, refers to) "the person demonstrably has a different, consistently preferred style for his or her own name", which in turn comes after Wikipedia's standard style rule. Thoughts? --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 15:14, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

    • @Mdaniels5757: I think both interpretations are potentially valid - I'll leave the decision to the closing admin. Incidentally, our article on B.B. King doesn't have the space, although a fair number of the citations use "BB" instead. There's a footnote (without references) that his name is usually written without the space: the discussion is at Talk:B.B._King/Archive_1#Space_between_B._and_B., which took place before MOS:INITIALS had its current form. I won't change my !vote for now, but your desired result is not without precedent. Tevildo (talk) 16:34, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

• Comment @Inkian Jason: Has Mr Sulzberger officially issued a press release (through your agency or otherwise) to this effect? If so, a link to it would be a useful citation if the article is moved. Tevildo (talk) 16:41, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

• @Tevildo: Mr. Sulzberger uses "A.G." on his Twitter account and The New York Times Company uses "A.G." on its corporate site. The New York Times Company has also pointed out to me that most other outlets do not use a space between the initials as well (Time, The Wall Street Journal, Vanity Fair, Associated Press, Reuters, etc). Thanks! Inkian Jason (talk) 17:37, 7 July 2020 (UTC)
  • @Inkian Jason: Thanks, that's all useful information, but has he stated explicitly that his chosen - nickname? - should not have a space, apart from your posting above? We won't be able to use that as a reference - see WP:UGC. It's not essential, but it would still be useful. Tevildo (talk) 21:55, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support. I came here to close this move request, but found that I needed to do a bit of investigation based on the conflicting !votes among discussants. I took a look at the citations in the article and found that all citations that refer to the initials use "A.G." except for two (see below for accounting). This satisfies the "overwhelming majority of reliable sources" element of the style guidance. --User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 02:12, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

  A.G. (no space)

  • IMDB
  • NYT article (x2)
  • Intelligencer
  • JTA
  • Washington Post
  • The Oregonian
  • Reuters
  • Brown Alumni Magazine
  • SEC submission
  • Wired
  • TIME
  • BuzzFeed News
  • NYT company pres release
  • NPR
  • Politico
  • USA Today (and in a tweet from Trump shown in article)

  A. G. (space)

  • New York Magazine
  • NYT article (on byline)

• Support per my comment above and per Ceyockey. --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 02:23, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. I find it hard to believe that he's really that bothered by a space. This is merely a style issue, and wikipedia style is to use a space. DrKay (talk) 17:26, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

• Point is that if the biographee goes by the name without the space and asks Wikipdia to change it, that's covered by MOS and so should be spaceless. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:09, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is purely a style issue and the current title is Wikipedia's house style. -- Necrothesp (talk) 23:52, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suggestions for Providence Journal and The Oregonian subsections

Hello! On behalf of The New York Times Company as part of my work at Beutler Ink (see disclosure above), I'd like to submit a few requests to expand and update this article. First, I'd like editors to consider adding a couple details to the Providence Journal and The Oregonian subsections of Career.

Extended content

1. Providence Journal – Following is a copy of the current Providence Journal subsection: Sulzberger worked as an intern for The Providence Journal from 2004 to 2006, working from the paper's office in Wakefield. While there, he revealed that membership of the Narragansett Lions Club was not open to women. Despite threats from the club to withdraw their advertising if the story was run, the Journal published Sulzberger's story. The club began admitting women members a few months later. References I propose replacing this with the following, which mentions how he joined the newspaper and fixes grammar ("was run" → "ran"): After being encouraged by Brown journalism professor Tracy Breton to apply, Sulzberger interned at The Providence Journal from 2004 to 2006, working from the paper's office in Wakefield. While there, he revealed that membership of the Narragansett Lions Club was not open to women. Despite threats from the club to withdraw their advertising if the story ran, the Journal published Sulzberger's story. The club began admitting women a few months later. References 2. The Oregonian – Following is a copy of the current The Oregonian subsection: Sulzberger worked as a news reporter for The Oregonian newspaper in Portland from 2006 to 2009. References I propose replacing this with the following, which uses the same source to give a brief overview of the work he completed during his tenure with the newspaper: Sulzberger worked as a news reporter for The Oregonian newspaper in Portland from 2006 to 2009, writing more than 300 pieces about local government and public life, including a series of investigative exposés on misconduct by Multnomah County Sheriff Bernie Giusto that led to the sheriff's resignation. References

Can editors please review this request and update the article appropriately on my behalf? I will not update the article directly because of my conflict of interest. I've tried to show changes clearly and make the proposed markup easy to copy and paste. I'm happy to address any concerns.

Thanks for your consideration. Inkian Jason (talk) 21:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Have added your edits with the exception of the last line referencing the sheriff's resignation ("that led to" not backed up by exact language in the source). Randy Kryn (talk) 02:36, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your help here, and for weighing in on the move discussion above. I'll be posting another request to improve this article soon. Inkian Jason (talk) 15:30, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Suggestions for The New York Times subsection

@Randy Kryn: Thanks again for your help above. I'd now like to focus on the subsection dedicated to The New York Times. Following is a copy of the current markup:

Extended content

In February 2009, Sulzberger began writing for the Times. The newspaper published his first article on March 2, 2009. He was named an associate editor of The New York Times in August 2015. In October 2016, he was named deputy publisher, putting him in line to succeed his father as publisher. On December 14, 2017, it was announced that he would take over as publisher on January 1, 2018. He is the sixth member of the Ochs-Sulzberger family to serve in the role. The 2017 film Kodachrome, directed by Mark Raso, is based upon one of his 2010 articles. Sulzberger met President Trump at the White House on July 20, 2018. He said in a statement, "I told the president directly that I thought that his language was not just divisive but increasingly dangerous. I warned that this inflammatory language is contributing to a rise in threats against journalists and will lead to violence." References

I propose replacing this markup with the following:

Extended content

In February 2009, Sulzberger began writing for the Times as a metro reporter. The newspaper published his first article on March 2, 2009. He became a national correspondent, heading the Kansas City bureau and covering the Midwest region. In 2011, he reported on the ground from Joplin, Missouri about a deadly tornado that killed more than 100 people. In 2013, he profiled two hang glider pilots trying to break the longest flight world record. In 2013, he was tapped by then-executive editor Jill Abramson to lead the team that produced the Times' Innovation Report, an internal assessment of the challenges facing the Times in the digital age. He was the lead author of the 97-page report, which documented in "clinical detail" how the Times was losing ground to "nimbler competitors" and "called for revolutionary changes". The Innovation Report was leaked to BuzzFeed News in March 2014. He was named an associate editor of The New York Times in August 2015. In October 2016, he was named deputy publisher, putting him in line to succeed his father as publisher. The 2017 film Kodachrome, directed by Mark Raso, is based on his 2010 article about a rural community that became the last place to develop Kodachrome film. On December 14, 2017, it was announced that he would take over as publisher on January 1, 2018. He is the sixth member of the Ochs-Sulzberger family to serve in the role. Sulzberger met President Trump at the White House on July 20, 2018. He said in a statement, "I told the president directly that I thought that his language was not just divisive but increasingly dangerous. I warned that this inflammatory language is contributing to a rise in threats against journalists and will lead to violence." References

The proposed text adds mention of him joining the newspaper as a metro reporter, becoming a national correspondent for the Kansas City bureau, and his work on the Innovation Report. I've also moved the Kodachrome claim so content is displayed in chronological order (and linked to Kodachrome for context), and worked to tighten the language a bit. I hope editors find this additional detail and sourcing helpful. I will have another request to improve the latter half of this section, but I don't want to give editors too much to review at once. Thanks again for you help, Inkian Jason (talk) 16:31, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Have edited your language of the Times section and added it. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:33, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

@Randy Kryn: Thanks again for reviewing. I see the language you've added does not mention his role as national correspondent for the Kansas City bureau or the Innovation Report, both of which are well-documented. Can you explain your decision to leave out these details? Inkian Jason (talk) 14:42, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Probably lost in cut-and-paste, have added the items. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:55, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

@Randy Kryn: Thanks for taking another look. I see there's a reference error for "Heirs" in the References section. The markup for this citation is provided in the proposed text above, following the sentence "In 2011, he reported on the ground from Joplin, Missouri about a deadly tornado that killed more than 100 people":

• <ref name=Heirs>{{cite journal |title=The Heirs |journal=[[New York (magazine)|New York]] |date=August 23, 2015 |url=https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2015/08/new-york-times-heirs.html |accessdate=June 26, 2020}}</ref>

I will assume you do not prefer to add the proposed text re: his reporting on the tornado and longest flight world record attempt. Do you mind adding the citation to resolve the error? Inkian Jason (talk) 15:00, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

You can probably add a reference, I don't think paid COI's are restricted from such edits but may be wrong. I have a regular non-paid COI tag placed on a page but plan to add relevant refs if nobody else does. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:20, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

 Done Thanks. I prefer not to edit the main space directly because of my conflict of interest, but I've fixed the reference error as a non-controversial improvement per your suggestion here. Inkian Jason (talk) 15:48, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

More improvements for The New York Times subsection

@Randy Kryn: Thanks again for your help above. As promised, I've returned with some additional improvements for this section. Since there were some copy-and-paste issues with the above request, I've saved my proposed section markup here for easier review. I've saved the current markup here and this diff shows the specific changes I propose, as outlined below:

• added mention of his role (metro reporter) when he joined the news outlet, as mentioned in multiple reliable sources
• moved the claim about Kodachrome film up since this is about one of his 2010 articles
• noted his involvement in the 'Our Path Forward' plan while serving as associate editor for newsroom strategy
• added mention of his family members (and colleagues) who were also considered for the role of deputy publisher
• added mention that Sulzberger commented on his meeting with Trump after the president's tweet
• added mention of his second meeting with Trump
• added his positions on independent press and local news, which I think are relevant given his role

I've worked to draft brief and neutral content based on sourcing, and The New York Times Company has verified accuracy of all claims. I'll refrain from updating the page myself, but if these seem like reasonable updates, I'm hoping Randy Kryn and/or other editors will copy and paste over the updated markup appropriately. Thanks again for your help! Inkian Jason (talk) 17:56, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

@Whoisjohngalt: I know you're aware of my work to improve a small group of NYT-related biographies, so I wanted to put this outstanding request on your radar as well. Here I've outlined specific improvements and proposed specific markup changes in user draft space for easier review and copying and pasting. Would you be willing to review this request as well? Thanks! Inkian Jason (talk) 14:48, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

 Done

Thank you for updating the article, Whoisjohngalt. Inkian Jason (talk) 22:35, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Suggestions for introduction

@Whoisjohngalt: Thanks again for your help above. I have a final suggestion for improving this article. Currently, the article's introduction emphasizes his relation to Arthur Ochs Sulzberger Jr. and suggests this is a reasonable for the subject's notability. Of course, the claim is true, but I propose restructuring the text a bit to describe the subject's role at the news outlet, then mention Arthur Ochs Sulzberger Jr. I've proposed specific text here, and this diff shows proposed changes to the current text. The proposed text also displays the subject's initials (A.G.) after "Arthur Gregg". If you agree, would you mind updating the page on my behalf? Again, my goal here is to lead with details about the subject and what makes him notable, without removing mention of his father, who is obviously notable as well.

Thank you! Inkian Jason (talk) 16:22, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Lede has been updated.  Done

Thanks again for your help, Whoisjohngalt. I'm currently seeking assistance at Talk:Meredith Kopit Levien, if you're willing to take a look. Inkian Jason (talk) 18:59, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I am writing on behalf of The New York Times Company to request a factual update to this page. Effective January 1, 2021, A.G. Sulzberger is chairman of The New York Times Company in addition to serving as publisher as The New York Times.

Recommend updating the first and the second sentence as follows: "A.G. Sulzberger has been chairman of The New York Times Company since 2021 and publisher of The New York Times since 2018. As chairman and publisher...."

Below are sources:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-new-york-times-sulzberger/nyts-sulzberger-jr-to-retire-as-chairman-by-end-of-december-idUSKCN26E3IG

https://www.nytco.com/person/a-g-sulzberger/

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/media/arthur-ochs-sulzberger-retires/index.html

170.149.100.113 (talk) 12:19, 1 January 2021 (UTC) Danielle Rhoades Ha, on behalf of The New York Times Company 170.149.100.113 (talk) 12:19, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

Suggestions for personal life

{{Ping|Whoisjohngalt} Hello! I work at The New York Times and am writing to suggest an edit to the personal life section -- the removal of "Both practice the Jewish faith." The supporting citation, The Washington Post article, does not support that statement. Thank you! Danielle Rhoades Ha 2600:1700:3F78:10B0:E48F:C248:94BA:164D (talk) 20:54, 15 July 2021 (UTC)

Suggested improvements for review

Continuing my work from 2020, I would like to submit a series of edit requests to bring this article up to date. As a reminder, I am submitting these requests on behalf of The New York Times Company as part of my work at Beutler Ink. In order to make requests easiest to review, I'm separating them out in subsections below.

In general, these requests seek to make the entry more complete by adding information about his approach to journalism and his role at the newspaper. Inkian Jason (talk) 18:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

"Journalism's Essential Value" essay

I'd like to suggest the addition of the following text to A._G._Sulzberger#The_New_York_Times:

• In 2023, Sulzberger wrote an essay for the Columbia Journalism Review called "Journalism's Essential Value", in which he outlined "his approach to independent journalism, the alleged institutional hostility towards conservatives, and the path to rebuilding trust in news", according to The Dispatch. David Remnick of The New Yorker said Sulzberger's piece "confronts the many arguments over journalistic principle, method, and process that have been aired in recent years" and was "clearly written as a reaction to the polarized moment, inside and outside the journalism business".

References

I'm asking editors to review and update the article appropriately on my behalf.

Thanks in advance! Inkian Jason (talk) 18:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Hi, I'm not sure that a single article published by a journalist merits notable inclusion, at least not without more sources to demonstrate notability. Likeanechointheforest (talk) 22:12, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

World Press Freedom Day, Reuters Memorial Lecture

I have another suggested text addition for the same section:

• In 2023, Sulzberger delivered a keynote address at the headquarters of the United Nations in conjunction with World Press Freedom Day. In 2024, Sulzberger delivered the Reuters Memorial Lecture, an annual event hosted by the Reuters Institute. His speech addressed the challenge of producing independent journalism in a moment of increased tribalism and polarization.

References

Again, my goal is to add some additional context about his role and approach to journalism, based on secondary coverage in reliable sources.

Thanks for reviewing and updating the article appropriately. Inkian Jason (talk) 18:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Same as above. I'd also note that the speech received mixed feedback from other news outlets, and that these would need to be included for NPOV. Likeanechointheforest (talk) 22:33, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Re: Trump administration

For the same section (A._G._Sulzberger#The_New_York_Times), I propose the following addition:

• In 2019, Sulzberger spoke out against the Trump administration's role in fueling anti-press crackdowns by repressive regimes around the world, including the arrest of a New York Times reporter in Egypt.

References

Thanks again, Inkian Jason (talk) 18:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: Please provide additional sources to establish notability. My gauge here though is that these edit requests primarily serve to attempt to bolster Sulzberger's page in a moment during which he is facing a reputation crisis, rather than substantively contribute to information about him. Likeanechointheforest (talk) 22:36, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Nickname removal request

Currently, the article leads with "Arthur Gregg "Dash" Sulzberger..."

I am unable to find a single reliable source confirming "Dash" as the subject's nickname.

Can someone please update the opening sentence appropriately?

Thanks! Inkian Jason (talk) 18:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Currently it has "Fash", not "Dash", which seems even less likely. TruthDig uses "Dash" but I can't say it inspires confidence. This Daily Kos piece is, uh, not exactly a trustworthy-looking piece of journalism either. I am beginning to suspect this is some kind of derogatory Trump-type nickname, although what it means I couldn't tell you. Anyway, deleted with prejudice, thank you. Rusalkii (talk) 04:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Rusalkii Thanks for reviewing and updating the article. Inkian Jason (talk) 15:25, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

External link removal request

I would also suggest a removal of the Trans Lash podcast link, currently used as inline citation number 44. This content was added by a now-blocked editor and does not seem like a reliable source for a direct quote. Thanks for your consideration. Inkian Jason (talk) 18:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I am closing out this request, per this edit by User:GreenLipstickLesbian. Thank you, 15:36, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Proposed addition 1

The last paragraph of the subsection about The New York Times covers Sulzberger, Joe Biden, and Peter Baker. I would like to offer a text addition so all perspectives are considered and the paragraph is more neutral:

Both Baker and fellow Times reporter Jonathan Swan have taken issue with Politico's reporting on Sulzberger. On social media, Baker said, "AG wants us to cover this president — and every president — as fully, fairly and aggressively as we can because that’s our role. That’s true regardless of whether we get an interview. AG takes our responsibility very seriously and is a complete straight shooter."

References

I welcome text adjustments and implementation as editors see fit, my primary goal here is to bring balance and neutrality to how Politico and The New York Times are covered. As a reminder, I am submitting this request on behalf of The New York Times Company as part of my work at Beutler Ink. Thanks again, Inkian Jason (talk) 16:43, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Encoded  Talk 💬 09:48, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for reviewing, Inkian Jason (talk) 15:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Proposed addition 2: Bennett

Same as above, I would like to propose another text addition to the subsection about The New York Times in order to bring balance and neutrality. Currently, the second-to-last paragraph (starting "According to anonymous sources...") includes a comment by opinion section editor James Bennet. I suggest this article include the subject's direct response to Bennett so all perspectives are considered. I propose the following addition to the end of the paragraph:

In response, Sulzberger wrote: "James Bennet and I have always agreed on the importance of independent journalism, the challenges it faces in today's polarized world, and the mission of The Times to pursue independence even when the path of less resistance might be to give into partisan passions. But I could not disagree more strongly with the false narrative he has constructed about The Times."

References

I understand Fox News is sometimes not a preferred source on Wikipedia, but in this case the article is being used to support a direct quote/response by the subject, not to verify a controversial or disputable claim related to politics or science. Again, I'll let editors make text adjustments appropriately, as I do not edit the main space because of my conflict of interest. Thanks, Inkian Jason (talk) 17:23, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Encoded  Talk 💬 09:49, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again, Inkian Jason (talk) 15:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Proposed text addition 3: Our Path Forward

I would like to propose another text addition, this time to clarify the subject's role re: "Our Path Forward". Currently, the third paragraph of the section about The New York Times says: "Sulzberger was named associate editor for newsroom strategy in August 2015. In that role, he was part of the group that outlined the Times' plan to double the news outlet's digital revenue by 2020 and increase collaboration between departments, dubbed "Our Path Forward"."

Sulzberger was more than just "part of the group". He was a central figure. Therefore, I propose the following addition:

• Women's Wear Daily credited him with having a central role in the document's creation.

References

I ask editors to review and update the article appropriately in order to make the text more accurate. Thanks for your consideration, Inkian Jason (talk) 17:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Encoded  Talk 💬 09:50, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks again for reviewing, Inkian Jason (talk) 15:52, 28 October 2024 (UTC)