Talk:Yaqub al-Mansur

Requested move 1 November 2022

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. However, I am not seeing express support for the alternative, Ya'qub al-Mansur. BD2412 T 15:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Abu Yusuf Yaqub al-Mansur → Yaqub al-Mansur – WP:common name ... إيان (talk) 07:48, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support. It is indeed very common, and a little more concise. "Ya'qub al-Mansur" is also very common, if the apostrophe is acceptable for a title. R Prazeres (talk) 09:03, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

  I would also support a move to Ya'qub al-Mansur. إيان (talk) 21:34, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 15:39, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. M.Bitton (talk) 15:47, 1 November 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Almohad caliphs are frequently primarily (in some cases always) referred by their "Abu X" prename (esp. in the chronicles). It is the Almohad norm, and should be retained for consistency. Also helps clarify potential confusions. Abu Yusuf Yaqub is clearly a different person from Abu Yaqub Yusuf. But is Abu Yaqub Yusuf different from Yaqub? Walrasiad (talk) 16:31, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

  It's not WP:common name. There are several streets and boulevards, for example, with the name Yaqub al-Mansur but you wouldn't find one with the name "Abu Yusuf Yaqub." إيان (talk) 21:32, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

Our standard isn't street signs, but works of general reference. Encyclopedia Britannica uses "Abu Yusuf Yaqub al-Mansur". Britannica. So does Encyclopedia.com, Grove encyclopedia of art, African Kingdoms Encyclopedia, Africana encyclopedia, Encyclopedia of African history, Oxford Encyclpedia of Medieval Warfare, Greenwood Encyclopedia of World Popular Culture, etc. and many other books besides (e.g. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], etc.). And that didn't take much effort - even searching narrowly for "Yaqub al-Mansur", I am likelier to end up with more references which use the fuller "Abu Yusuf Yaqub al-Mansur" than the shortened form.

Granted, some works do use merely "Yaqub al-Mansur", but a sufficient number (apparently most) use "Abu Yusuf Yaqub al-Mansur" to merit retention of the fuller name here. The shortened name "Yaqub al-Mansur" is contained in the latter, so it should not be a surprise to those looking for the shorter version. But those looking up longer version "Abu Yusuf Yaqub" from works of reference or other casual works will likely be confused (particularly when there are similar names like "Abu Yaqub Yusuf" to misdirect them elsewhere). I don't really see the gain from shortening. Walrasiad (talk) 17:05, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

Those references sources are using the formal name. Take a look at Wikipedia:COMMONNAME. To illustrate the concept of commonly used names for the sake of recognizability, it offers the examples:

• Mahatma Gandhi (not: Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi)
• Mansa Musa (not: Musa I)
• Bill Clinton (not: William Jefferson Clinton)
• J. K. Rowling (not: Joanne Rowling)
• Bono (not: Paul Hewson)

The move suggested is clearly in line with the spirit of these examples. إيان (talk) 10:18, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I understand the spirit, but I don't find it in the evidence. "Abu Yusuf Yaqub al-Mansur" is not the official name, it is the common name. Indeed, it is those sources that define what the common name is, as pointed out in WP:COMMONNAME:

"the name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred. Other encyclopedias are among the sources that may be helpful in deciding what titles are in an encyclopedic register, as well as what names are most frequently used."

"In determining which of several alternative names is most frequently used, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies, and notable scientific journals."

I specifically used other encyclopedias and general works to find how he was referred to. It is the name they use. Indeed, I went out of my way to search for "Yaqub al-Mansur", and I still end up with "Abu Yusuf Yaqub al-Mansur" in the majority of results. In my conclusion, that's the common name. Walrasiad (talk) 11:23, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

• Support per nom. I'm not persuaded that extra titles are needed on the front of this person's name.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:07, 12 November 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. -NorthAfricanArmsDealer (talk) 12:28, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Birth info

105.66.129.28, I'll repeat again, please do not add information to the infobox or to the article without citing reliable sources, as required by Wikipedia:Verifiability. The birth place is not known unless there are reliable sources that say so. Please do not edit-war by repeating your edits after they are already reverted; this is not how edits are accepted on Wikipedia, see WP:CONSENSUS.

Aside from this recent edit-warring, the 1160 birth date also appears to be unsourced and should be removed. R Prazeres (talk) 03:58, 5 September 2023 (UTC)