Talk:Eyalet of Adrianople

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:20, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

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Adrianople Eyalet → Eyalet of Adrianople – per WP:COMMONNAME & WP:USEENGLISH

• "Eyalet of Adrianople" -Llc 15
• "Adrianople Eyalet" -Llc 0
• "Eyalet of Edirne" -Llc 5
• "Edirne Eyalet" -Llc 2 (-2)

-- Takabeg (talk) 13:07, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

A-yep. — LlywelynII 15:51, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, though, there is a case to be made for consistency. The actual WP:COMMONNAME isn't any of those. It's Ottoman "Province of Adrianople" -Llc clocking in with 65. Employing that would make it pain to distinguish between eyalets and vilayets, though. (Perhaps a case could be made for a unified Province page including both since they were developments within a single system?) — LlywelynII 15:58, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

To clarify what I meant by consistency:

• Employing CommonName here will mean a mix of eyalet names, some with Anglicized forms (Adrianople), some with modern Turkish (Istanbul), some with Ottoman Turkish (Diyâr-ı Bekr), some with still others (Niš).
• The Anglicized forms particularly don't sit well with the modern use of "Eyalet" and "Vilayet" to describe what was traditionally rendered as "Province." There's a case to be made that the scholarly consensus is changing in favor of the endonym for the division, but it's not there yet.

I think the search data suggests this plan of action:

1. The article names should be in the form Province of Commonname or Province of Commonname (Ottoman Empire) per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:ENGLISH.
2. Because this title covers them all, the articles should combine the (early) sanjaks; beylerbeyliks, pashaliks, & eyalets; and vilayets & mutasarrifates (=mutasarrifliks).
3. The lede sentence should include the major Ottoman names with Anglicized translations. For instance:

   The Province of Adrianople (Ottoman Turkish: ایالت ادرنه, Eyālet-i Edirnê, Edirne Eyalet from 1826–1864; Ottoman Turkish: ولايت ادرنه, Vilâyet-i Edirne, Edirne Vilayet from 1864–1922) was a province of the Ottoman Empire in south-eastern Europe. ...

   or

   The Province of Adrianople was a province of the Ottoman Empire in south-eastern Europe. It was called the Eyalet of Edirne (Ottoman Turkish: ایالت ادرنه, Eyālet-i Edirnê) from its founding in 1826 until the Tanzimat Reforms of 1864, after which it was known as the Vilayet of Edirne (ولايت ادرنه, Vilâyet-i Edirne). ...

4. If the province was also known as a "Beylerbeylik" or "Pashalik" that could be clarified in a sentence further down, talking about the commander of the province:

   ... Because it was commanded by a pasha, the province of Janina was also known as the Pashalik of Janina. ...

5. For the sake of room and clarity, any other translated names (modern Turkish, Hungarian, Serbian, Bulgarian, &c.) should be moved down to a separate Name section, excepting only very special cases such as Eastern Rumelia. The same goes for Yanya Eyalet, where you've got something like five fairly common names: Janina goes in the lede, then the others are mentioned lower down.
6. Redirects from all the other versions of the name. Just noticed Eyalet of Edirne doesn't have one, but should fix that after we pin down the article name.

Thoughts? — LlywelynII 01:32, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

As long as I know, there is specific rule on this. I try to anglicize them as possible as I can. But my time is also limited :) And I'm sometimes not able to find sources. As you know, Eyalet and Vilayet can be translated to Province. Normally Sanjak is translated to District, but sometimes to Province. In the Ottoman Empire, there were various administrative units: eyalet, beylerbeylik, vilayet, sanjak, pashalik, kaptanderyalik (Kapudanlik-i Derya), Voyvodalik, Meliklik, Mutassariflik etc. But in English there are not precise equivalents and translations is very limited. Moreover, modern provinces of the Republic of Turkey were called as X Vilayet in the early republican era. I think we have to be careful this fact when we seek "common" names. We have enough trouble understanding the administration units of the Ottoman Empire. If we use "province", articles will be more complicated. Anyway, we cannot decide on such essential things here. I think we'd better use Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Ottoman Empire to ask other users. Takabeg (talk) 02:23, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Will do, if China stops blocking WikiProject Ottoman Empire. — LlywelynII 02:30, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

References

Date of Formation

So was it 1826 or 1830? — LlywelynII 15:51, 1 September 2011 (UTC)