Talk:AHRLAC Holdings Ahrlac

See Also

I would propose that the following aircraft should be added to the list.

1. OV-10 Bronco - Previous era but similar layout and COIN role
2. FMA IA 58 Pucará - Previous era but similar COIN role
3. Beechcraft T-6 Texan II - Similar Light Attack role
4. Pilatus PC-21 - Similar Light Attack role
5. Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano - Similar Light Attack role
6. Air Tractor AT-802U - Silimar Light Attack role

Where light attack/ armed reconnaissance is considered a counter-insurgency role (COIN)

Scareodynamics (talk) 19:09, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

The T-6 and PC-21 are primarily trainers; the Pucara is a different era. The AT-802U might be vaguely comparable, while the Super Tucano is a possibility. I'll have to dig out the Aviation Leak this was mentioned in and improve the article first, though - that's a much higher priority - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:21, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

The role of the OV-10 is similar though it is a much larger aircraft. When I saw the first press reports of the AHRLAC my first thought was "Cool, it's an OV-10 Lite!".

The rest don't have a significant recce/observation role which seems to be the AHRLAC's primary function - they are armed COIN versions of trainers or in the case of the Pucará, a light attack plane without a major recce/observation role. As I understand it the AHRLAC can also be thought of as a "manned Predator". Roger (talk) 19:33, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Hence the OV-10 and Firebird being logical see-alsos. :) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:06, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Relevant and interesting discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft#"See Also" sections. It looks like the project guidance is moving towards being much more selective about what qualifies for these lists. Roger (talk) 13:39, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I reverted the move to Aerosud Ahrlac

I did it because judging from the official website the manufacturer appears to be Ahrlac Holdings Pty Ltd, which is a joint venture between Aerosud and the Paramount Group. This aircraft is not a product of Aerosud alone. Roger (talk) 22:54, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

What is the definition of "manufacturer"? If it is the entity that owns the intellectual property rights of the design then the manufacturer is Ahrlac Holdings. If it is the owner/tennant of the place where the physical construction work happens then the manufacturer is Aerosud. The Paramount Group's role in the joint venture is not clear. Roger (talk) 08:45, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Seems that the manufacturing work is being done by the "Ahrlac Holdings" joint venture. All 3 could be listed in the manufacturer field with a slash (/) between or use of the Designer field for Aerosud and Paramount. The arrangement just needs to be explained in the text, which it is now. -Fnlayson (talk) 20:04, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

The Aircraft is actually produced and designed at Aerosuds Pretoria factory Warbirdsfly (talk) 11:47, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The official web site refers to Aerosud as the developer and Paramount as the partner. I see the only reference to AHRLAC holdings is in the 'Customer Support' section, and then the address is the same as for Aerosud's factory. The Paramount web site refers to partnership between Aerosud and themselves, there is no mention of AHRLAC holdings. So I would suggest that AHRLAC Holdings is just a shell company with no staff etc. The physical manufacturer would be Aerosud. Scareodynamics (talk) 12:13, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The company that does the physical labour is only one part of the issue. I posted a question about this issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aviation#What is the definition of "manufacturer"? in an attempt to get clarity on the general principle but so far the topic has drawn only one reply. The best solution in this instance would be if we can find a reliable source that provides us with a definitive statement by the company(s) involved that says clearly and unambigiously what they call it - "Ahlac Holdings Ahrlac" or "Aerosud Ahrlac" or "Aerosud-Paramount Ahrlac" or whatever. In the case of certified civil aircraft the "standard" answer to "who is the manufacturer?" is "The owner of the type certificate". Roger (talk) 12:14, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Is there a bias against using South African sources?

I notice all the cites referencing South African publications such as DefenceWeb that were here in earlier versions of the article have been replaced by US sources. Just asking... Roger (talk) 07:24, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

No bias, just when I was rewriting the article from scratch, those were the sources I used - didn't come across the DefenseWeb source while working. I can re-add it to help confirm a detail or two though. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:00, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I see, thanks. I didn't realise that it had undergone a complete rewrite. In any case some SA refs have made it back into the article. Roger (talk) 13:49, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Correcting some AHRLAC facts

1. To demonstrate the number of blades as 5 as per my first post - please refer to www.ahrlac.com and go the Experinece AHRLAC and then to Interactive 3D Models.

2. The aircraft is produced and designed at the Pretoria campus of Aerosud. Best reference is nr 3 from Engineering News

3. Regarding the 3-view I uploaded (and created for both the Wiki and the Ahrlac Website), I have mailed 'permissions-en@wikimedia.org' to give permission again from the correct address.

4. The role of the aircraft I think is well represented in the following aircraft ( best online ref is www.ahrlac.com under AHRLAC Explained and then Mission Capabilities

OV-10 Bronco - Coin, Light Attack,
Beechcraft T-6 Texan II - Advanced training and light attack (AT-6B Texan II)
Pilatus PC-21 - Advanced Training role - layout is similar to a jet in AHRLAC
Embraer EMB 314 Super Tucano - Training and Light Attack Role
Air Tractor AT-802U - Light Attack Role
Beech King Air C12 Hurin - Elint Role and similar equipment
Socata TBM - Elint Role
Kai KT-1 - Recon, Training and Light Attack (KT-1C)
Warbirdsfly (talk) 13:11, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

1. The propeller is not described at all in the article and the existing mock-up's propeller appears to have four blades.

2. We already know that. The issue is more complicated than simply naming the factory. This matter is discussed elsewhere on this page please keep the topic together.

3. That would be great, thanks.

4. Please see the first topic above.

Roger (talk) 13:30, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

FHF jamesaustin (talk) 13:44, 27 September 2017 (UTC)Hi there, I would like to propose adding the following amendments to this article:

MWARI – Wikipedia entry

Mwari is a new light, multirole aircraft being developed by Paramount Group for armed forces across the globe. It is a military variant of the Advanced High Performance Reconnaissance Light Aircraft (AHRLAC).

The Mwari project was unveiled in May 2016. Paramount and Boeing made a cooperation agreement in September 2014 for collaborating on specific projects to be implemented in future. The agreement was extended in May 2016 to jointly develop an advanced mission system for the Mwari aircraft.

The cost-effective Mwari multirole aircraft can be deployed in border patrol, counter insurgency missions, forward air control, forward airdrop and resupply, armed reconnaissance, and electronic intelligence (ELINT) and communication intelligence (COMINT) missions. Other mission capabilities will include internal security, disaster management and maritime patrol.

Mwari aircraft design details Incorporating a twin-boom design, the Mwari aircraft features airframe constructed using metal and composite materials.

The high-wing design will improve visibility for the crew, while allowing operations from unprepared airfields. The modular design will also support the integration of different mission systems for a range of military operations.

The aircraft will have a length of 10.5m, wing span of 12m and a height of 4m. The maximum take-off weight of the aircraft is 3,800kg and maximum payload capacity with full fuel load will be more than 800kg.

Mwari cockpit features The aircraft will feature a multi-function IFR glass cockpit, which cockpit accommodates two crew members in tandem seating layout. It can be optionally installed with Martin Baker Mk16 or Mk17 ejection seats.

The cockpit will also feature a large vertical separation and will offer optimum view for the crew.

Sensor / radar equipment The aircraft will be equipped with Paramount, Boeing or any other international partners’ integrated mission system for conducting intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) and light attack missions. It will feature a belly-mounted, multi-mission sensor pod. Close Air Support (CAS) role is very important

"The aircraft will be equipped with Boeing integrated mission system for conducting intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) and light attack missions." The adaptable pod systems aboard the aircraft will allow the integration of forward looking infrared (FLIR) cameras, synthetic aperture radars (SARs), active and passive electronic warfare (EW) systems, and ELINT / COMINT payloads.

Engine and landing gear The single-pusher-engine configuration of Mwari will integrate a Pratt & Whitney PT6A-66B engine driving a single propeller. The flat-rated engine will develop a power of 710kW (950hp).

Mwari will be equipped with retractable tri-cycle landing gear designed for semi-prepared and unprepared runways. The landing gear can be optionally integrated with extra-large high flotation wheels.

Mwari aircraft performance The short take-off and landing (STOL) capability of the aircraft will allow operations in small airfields with short runways or surfaces.

With full load, the aircraft will require a take-off distance of 550m. It will survive 8g and -4g loads during operations.

Mwari can operate at a maximum altitude of 31,000ft and will have a maximum cruise speed of 272kt. The maximum mission rage and ferry range of the aircraft will be 1,150nmi and 2,000nmi, respectively.

"We needed something that could do part of what a fighter jet could do, part of what an attack helicopter could do, what a UAV could do, what an AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) could do, and part of what a trainer could do, all in one platform," said Ivor Ichikowitz, Founder and Executive Chairman of Paramount Group, which designed the aircraft. While many other aircraft have been re-purposed from their primary task to fulfil a variety of other missions - trainers being used as attack aircraft, for example - the Mwari is the first aircraft designed with multiple missions in mind. It comes equipped with 25 'hard points' that can be used to carry a wide variety of sensors, or weapons. "It's the first ever ever light, smart platform," Ichikowiz said. "It's primarily a hub. It's a platform that gives you the ability to plug and play multiple sensors, weapons and mission systems into the same aircraft." One of the aircraft's main advantages, Ichikowitz added, is it's relative cost-effectiveness. As an example, he compared the Mwari to the BAE Systems Hawk fighter, a single-engine jet. "That aircraft operates for roughly $12,000 an hour, and that's cheap," he said. "This aircraft will operate for less than $1,000 an hour." References: http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mwari-light-multirole-aircraft/

FHF jamesaustin (talk) 13:44, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

References

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Does AHRLAC Holdings still exist?

AHRLAC Holdings was created as a vehicle for the joint venture between Paramount Group and Aerosud. With the takeover of Aerosud's Aerospace division by Paramount Group I'm not sure that AHRLAC Holdings still actually exists as the legal entity identified as the manufacturer. Unfortunately neither the Aerosud or Ahrlac websites have been updated since before the takeover! Perhaps it should be renamed "Paramount AHRLAC"? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 19:53, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Militarised?

How can a militarized version be developed when this is a military aircraft to start with?Royalcourtier (talk) 08:39, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

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