Talk:Motl, Peysi the Cantor's Son

Page name issues

This article was apparently moved from the initial Mottel the Cantor's Son to conform with the title used in the Tamara Kahana translation published in 1953, and included in the bilingual edition produced by Sholom Aleichem Family Publications in 1999 (ISBN 1-929068-00-X). This is, however, an expansion of the original title which is correctly translated in the heading under which this article was first presented, and is the form in which the work is best known and most commonly referenced. With minor adjustment to reflect the Yiddish transliteration rules generally applied in the Wikipedia, I am going to move it to Motl the Cantor's Son unless any objections appear here in the next few days. I'll then try to turn it into some less resembling a publisher's publicity review, and more in keeping with encyclopedic practice. --Futhark|Talk 20:12, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Futhark – your edit from June 9th.

I greatly appreciate your work to improve this article. It made it more concise and encyclopedic. Your latest entry has removed some undisputable facts, though, which are mentioned in the book:

“He maintains a humorous perspective even when relating grave events such as pogroms and violent labor riots (in New York City).”

The book is humorous which should be noted. This is not POV, in the same way that saying that “Tom Sawyer” was a humorous novel is not POV (also I hope that no one disputes that Sholem Aleichem was a humorist).

“this action causes most of the village’s sheep to be dyed black and the river to be polluted for months (both caused by ink they had tried to sell), and after they nearly poison the community with defective pesticide, their luck runs out.”

This chain of event does take place in the book (again, part of its humor).

“The family sinks deeper into poverty. Amidst rumors of pogroms, they and most of the village decide to immigrate to America.”

This also takes place in the book. The decision to immigrate to America follows not the failure of the actions above, but the fear of poverty and pogroms.

I’ve reverted only this edit and kept the others intact. Ron g (talk) 14:15, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Please provide an explicit reference to where "most of the villages sheep" are turned black. The text that I've seen only mentions two goats (צוויי ווײַסע ציגן — tsvey vayse tsign). Please also provide references to pogroms prior to the family's emigration. Finally, your reversion has Hamburg back on the path they took toward America. I can't spot any mention of it in the book other than in a story told to them by people they met in Antwerp. With apologies for any lack of diligence in the way I may have been reading, would you please provide a pointer here as well. --Futhark|Talk 18:28, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Two goats is fine, so let’s correct this part instead of taking out the entire story (ink, pesticide), which evidences well the comic aspects of the novel. As a person with a day job I don’t have time to scan for every mention of pogroms in the novel, but from what I can recall pogroms loom large in it. This is especially evident when the family arrives in NY and begins to hear rumors of what is happening back home. Also, some of the later arrivals to America were affected by the pogroms. The doctor’s wife (the stingy woman who withheld apples from Motl) had her house destroyed in the pogroms. Alyahu comments that she had it coming for being so stingy, to which Motl agrees (an example of how even pogroms are handled with a dose of humor – another sentence that should stay in this article). That Motl doesn't understand the effects of Pogroms until much later in the book doesn't diminish from their overall influence on the community's decision to emigrate.

By the way, it should be “immigrate to the United States” not, emigrate (at the end of first paragraph under Summary). You emigrate from, and immigrate to.

Ron g (talk) 15:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I cannot locate a single mention of pogroms in the first volume of this novel, which is where the entire story of the circumstances of Motl's family's emigration from Russia to America is told (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/emigrate). This does not support the elevation of (grammatically incorrect) assertions such as "with rumors of pogroms against Jews abound, the family and most of the village decide to immigrate to America" to "undisputable facts". It may, indeed, be worthwhile for the article to consider the retrospective discussion of pogroms that appears in the second volume. This does not, however, justify the assumption that the latter material somehow weighed into the family's initial reasoning. The article would need to be extended with properly framed new material to treat this correctly. I also have a day job, but do not believe that this reduces the obligation for my contributions to the Wikipedia to be supported by precise references. --Futhark|Talk 16:39, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Since as I said I have no time to scan the book for mentions of pogroms, I’m not going to pursue the pogrom issue, but I still did not see a response to taking out the ink/pesticide story, which is central to the first volume, and to taking out the important comment about the humorous perspective in which even serious events are described.

As for emigrate/immigrate, If the sentence were, “emigrate from Russia to America” then emigrate would be correct. Since the sentence only mentions the destination (America), it calls for “immigrate.” The sentence is again, “He describes their hardships, poverty, and fears — first locally, and then as they emigrate to the United States.” This is not grammatically correct. Ron g (talk) 12:23, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay — a few observations on your undisputable facts:

this action causes ... the river to be polluted for months (both caused by ink they had tried to sell)

The entire episode with ink in the river takes half a page. It starts when they pour it into the river under cover of darkness, and ends the following morning when the townspeople who need water from the river are furious with them for having put ink in it. Not one further word is said about this.

they nearly poison the community with defective pesticide

This one takes a full page. The joke is on Elyahu who believes that turkish pepper is a deadly toxin for mice. He doesn't manage to kill any of them with it, but he does trigger a sneezing epidemic in his immediate neighborhood. It lasted 90 minutes as Motl told it.

As for emigrate/immigrate. The distinction between these terms derives from the perspective of their application, not the prepositions with which they are introduced. Quoting from the WP article on emigration, "Emigration is the act of leaving one's native country or region to settle in another. It is the same as immigration but from the perspective of the country of origin." If you are in Russia planning to go to the United States, you are considering emigrating. When you leave, and while you are in transit, you are emigrating. When you arrive, you are immigrating. I've eliminated any possible ambiguity about this in the article, and have also emphasized Motl's humorous spin on anything and everything. I will also gladly reintroduce the material in exemplification of his and Elyahu's get-rich hijinks, but only on the basis of you, or someone else, providing explicit reference to text that supports what I currently believe to be inappropriate exaggerations of what can be cited in an encyclopedic context. --Futhark|Talk 16:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)