Talk:Agnes de Mille

Untitled

Quote: "The truest expression of a people is in its dances and its music...Bodies never lie." Agnes De Mille

Requested move

Agnes DeMille → Agnes de Mille — This article was moved from Agnes de Mille on 11 August (UTC) with the following explanation: "All of the family went by "DeMille," not "de Mille."" However, Carol Easton's biography is entitled No Intermission: The Life of Agnes de Mille. —Timeineurope 14:10, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Oppose - I don't think that this is a good enough reason. She should go by how most commonly her name is rendered (as it also should be consistent with Cecil's name). Hell's Angels: The Strange and Terrible Saga of the Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs uses the apostrophe in "Hells Angels" although the biker gang omits it. Reginmund 00:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
• Very strong support - Definitely move (back) to de Mille. DeMille is not how she spelled her name, and other people's names are no precedent to go by as there are so many personal variations on name spellings. Nobody is going to decide to move Britney Spears to Brittany Spears because "Brittany is the traditional spelling" - that is just absurd. Agnes de Mille spelled her name in that manner, there is plenty of evidence for it, and the article should absolutely reflect that. -- Editor at Large • talk 11:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why it should be consistent with Cecil's name. Agnes de Mille and Cecil B. DeMille are different people and may be spelt differently.
• [1] also spells it Agnes de Mille.
• A Google search shows that Agnes DeMille is not "how most commonly her name is rendered".
• She is Agnes de Mille on the dust jacket of her memoir: [2].
• The link above also shows her having signed her memoir as Agnes George de Mille.

Timeineurope 09:18, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Does the dance company named after her have a space? We have a policy of use the name things are most commonly called by - we are not interested in making her consistant with her uncle if she wasn't. (People can anglicise their surnames in different ways) Secretlondon 20:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

She's billed as "de Mille" in the programs and playbills for Bloomer Girl, Paint Your Wagon, Brigadoon, and the Agnes de Mille Dance Theatre, in addition to the "Agnes de Mille Dances" website referenced above. Incidentally, the latter is operated by de Mille's son. I've never seen her called DeMille in any professional context. Lector 00:57, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Name Debate

Regradless of what her name really was, the page should be titled according to the most commonly used form of her name.

She was born Agnes deMille, but she is often always reffered to as Agnes de Mille, so teh article should be listed as such.

For example, the page I created on the composer Minkus is listed under Léon Minkus, even though he was born and called Ludwig Minkus all of his life. Ludwig is his correct first name, not Léon, but since he is almost always reffered to as Léon in modern times, then I put the page under that name.

--Mrlopez2681 23:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

The current entry Agnes De Mille is overwhelmingly prefered if one searches Google with Agnes De Mille -DeMille and with Agnes DeMille -De -Mille. Robert Greer 23:19, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Agnes De Mille vs. Agnes de Mille is admittedly a lesser issue and one which Google will not resolve.

Her papers are on file at Smith College in the Sophia Smith Collection with the latter, lowercase, de.

American Ballet Theatre and New York City Ballet's websites do likewise (although not quite perfectly consistently).

The New York Times and IMDB are consistently lowercase de, so the current Agnes de Mille may be taken for definitive with considerable confidence. Robert Greer (talk) 00:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

DEFAULTSORT

Should she be {{DEFAULTSORT:De Mille, Agnes}} or {{DEFAULTSORT:Mille, Agnes de}}?

NB She should not be {{DEFAULTSORT:de Mille, Agnes}} in any case! — Robert Greer (talk) 12:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

vandalism?

The last sentence in the first paragraph of "Career" seems odd.

172.191.112.231 (talk) 05:24, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Good catch, I've reverted it. Qrsdogg (talk) 05:26, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Film Career--Carousel

The article states that Agnes de Mille's stage success did not translate into film, noting that her only film credit is Oklahoma! It adds, "She was not invited to recreate her choreography for either Brigadoon or Carousel." I think this is incorrect. I just watched the DVD film version of Carousel a few nights ago, and she is definitely named in the opening credits. Moreover, Wikipedia's own article on "Carousel (musical)" notes that she choreographed Louise's ballet in both the musical and in the film: "Like most of the pair's works, Carousel contains a lengthy ballet, 'Billy Makes a Journey', in the second act, as Billy looks down to the Earth from 'Up There' and observes his daughter. In the original production, and in the film, the ballet was choreographed by de Mille."--Philiptheaccountingprof (talk) 20:19, 27 June 2013 (UTC)philiptheaccountingprof

The IMDb cast and crew page for Carousel also lists Agnes de Mille as the choreographer for Louise's ballet.--Philiptheaccountingprof (talk) 22:57, 27 June 2013 (UTC)philiptheaccountingprof

TCM is a much more reliable source for this kind of information, and it says "Louise's ballet derived from the orig by Agnes de Mille". which means that de Mille did not work on the film, that the choreography in general was by someone else, but in the case of Louise's ballet it was based closely enough on the original that she was given credit. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:14, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Ballet template

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

As per WP:BIDIRECTIONAL, without a compelling reason to do otherwise, it makes little sense to keep the Ballet navbox on this page. The navbox has to do with basic ballet terminology/concepts, contains no biographies whatsoever, and this article is already in appropriate categories to aid navigation. Pinging those who have made edits related to this: @Beyond My Ken and Robsinden: ~ Rob^Talk 21:36, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

There is a compelling reason: articles on subjects intimately associated with ballet are enhanced for the reader by a navbox which provides them with more places to go for information about ballet. Now, there are several options: I could put all the links in the navbox into the article's "See also" section, we can bloat the navbox with all the articles of people associated with ballet, or, much more realistically and logically, we can realize that BIDIRECTIONAL is a non-mandatory guideline and simply allow it to be used in an appropriate article, hewing to the spirit of IAR instead of the spirit of bureaucratic and unnecessary following of rules. BMK (talk) 22:04, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Guidelines are meant to be followed in the majority of cases, which is why they exist in the first place. In this case, the guideline is in place because navboxes are not useful where every link in the navbox isn't a likely target from all articles that include it. In this case, who is likely to wish to navigate from Agnes de Mille to Aplomb? ~ Rob^Talk 23:54, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

It's highly likely that someone reading an article about a ballet choreographer would be interested in going to other articles about ballet. That's because ballet is a broad general subject, not a tightly focused one, like "Films directed by Richard Lester". BMK (talk) 23:57, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Ballet is a broad topic, yes, but it's unlikely that someone will navigate from a specific biography to the extremely general pages. I would still like an answer to what situation someone would wish to navigate from Agnes de Mille to some of the navbox links, such as Aplomb or Azerbaijani ballet. I'd be willing to support inclusion of a navbox against BIDIRECTIONAL, but only if one can make a case why every link in the navbox is a valid target for a "See also" section in the article, as the navbox essentially functions as a compact and visually appealing see also section. ~ Rob^Talk 16:29, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but I totally disagree with your take on where readers are likely to want to navigate. In any case, we should be providing as much choice as possible, not cutting off choices because we're tryinh to read their minds in advance. We're here to serve them, and not to channel them to go where we think they should (or should want to) go. BMK (talk) 17:38, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I understand your opinion. The overuse of navboxes leads to unnecessary clutter and taking weight away from navboxes that are useful, and I think that con outweighs the pro here. That difference in opinion is unlikely to be completely resolved. Unless others chime in soon, I may post an RfC on the narrowly defined topic of whether this navbox is appropriate for this article. ~ Rob^Talk 22:47, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

• We had an RFC for a similar situation at Template talk:Aviation lists#RfC: Should this navbox be removed from non-mentioned articles?. WP:BIDIRECTIONAL is clear. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:01, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

• Then start an RfC for this one. BMK (talk) 20:06, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

• @Robsinden and Beyond My Ken: RfC started below. ~ Rob^Talk 16:04, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

RfC

Should this article be an exception to WP:BIDIRECTIONAL and contain the {{Ballet}} navbox? ~ Rob^Talk 15:49, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

• Remove navbox as per WP:BIDIRECTIONAL. Currently, it's being used like a category. A general rule to determine if links in a navbox are appropriate is that you should be able to imagine situations where people would want to navigate from any article within the navbox to another. Applying that type of rule to this case, I can't imagine any situation where a reader would want to go from Agnes de Mille to Azerbaijani ballet or even more general things like Aplomb. WP:BIDIRECTIONAL has certain edge cases, such as linking to list articles that in turn link to other articles (in the cases where a list spans multiple articles due to its size). This is not one of those edge cases. ~ Rob^Talk 15:52, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
• Remove navbox per WP:BIDIRECTIONAL and recent consensus for a similar situation at Template talk:Aviation lists#RfC: Should this navbox be removed from non-mentioned articles? --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:08, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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