Talk:Alea iacta est

Greek

I read somewhere that Caesar likely said the famous phrase in Greek (O kubos erriphthê), but I have no cite for that. Anyone? -- pne (talk) 20:19, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

...he couldn't have possibly he and his whole armies spoke latin, which was the common language in Italy.11:12, 29 September 2006 (GCC)

Couldn't possibly? Cesar spoke excellent greek and he may have quoted a greek play when saying the phrase. --Edelvang 08:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

The phrase is part of a speech to his soldiers. The quotation from Suetonius is:

‘’[XXXII] Cunctanti ostentum tale factum est. quidam eximia magnitudine et forma in proximo sedens repente apparuit harundine canens; ad quem audiendum cum praeter pastores plurimi etiam ex stationibus milites concurrissent interque eos et aeneatores, rapta ab uno tuba prosiliuit ad flumen et ingenti spiritu classicum exorsus pertendit ad alteram ripam. tunc Caesar: “eatur”, inquit, “quo deorum ostenta et inimicorum iniquitas uocat. Iacta alea est”, inquit.’’

While Cesar did not only speak greek but he also read greek, actually also Menander's plays to which he refers (though in Menander's play the phrase is different) there is no reason why he would speak greek to his soldiers. Crossing the Rubicon was an infringement of Roman Law and many soldiers would have been reluctant to cross it for fear of the consequences. The whole speech was addressed to the soldiers urging them to understand that this was a divine sign which they should follow.

Agreed, he spoke perfect greek. Still he could not possibly have addressed his soldiers in greek.

Afil 02:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I have corrected the translation of the Greek, which is the 3ps. middle perfect imperative, and is correctly translated as such in the Loeb edition. Hquain (talk) 14:55, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Most noble Romans spoke Greek, Greek being the language of high culture. I heard somewhere, that the sentence 'Let the die fly' was spoken by one of Cesar's Greek commanders as an encouragement to Cesar *before* crossing the Rubicon. //roger.duprat.copenhagen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.243.127.231 (talk) 05:58, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I've heard exactly the same explanation, given by a professor in Roman history, he even quoted it in ancient Greek. Could well be apocryphal though, since most people seem to agree that the quote is by Caesar himself. //roger.duprat.copenhagen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.138.245.14 (talk) 08:10, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Most likely, it's being confused with Shakespeare's "Et tu, Brute" (And you, Brutus?) from 'Julius Caesar', which isn't what Caesar actually said... Caesar actually said "Kai su, Teknon" (And you, my son?), which is Greek. Alea iacta est (Or some variation thereof) was likely delivered in Latin. -128.227.11.69 (talk) 18:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

This page was recently moved from Alea iacta est, and although the current title is the correct quote, I think it should be moved back, because it is far more commonly seen as Alea jacta est or Alea iacta est in current usage:

Google:

alea jacta est: 297,000
alea iacta est: 210,000
iacta alea est: 15,700
jacta alea est: 938

I'm plumping for "iacta" rather than "jacta" because it is more accurate latin; because that's what the page was called before; and because it appears on google almost as often as "jacta". It is also worth noting that it appears as alea iacta/jacta est on all the other language wikis except da, where it is yet another permutation - "jacta est alea". FiggyBee 05:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I moved it originally only because "Iacta alea est" is how Suetonius ordered it. Now, I'm not sure if there are variations in the manuscripts, other accounts, or whatever that have another order, but if there are not ancient variations, I'm not sure why another order is more common today. Of course, it doesn't really change the sense of the sentence to reorder it (though there is a change in emphasis), and the page should probably be called whatever is in most common usage (including the j) with redirects for the variations (cf. WP:NC(CN)). --Flex (talk|contribs) 14:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

If you are citing the Latin Library, it has no critical notes. The Perseus text, which appears to be the 1908 Teubner, has the same order in Section 32, a disagreement on punctuation. I agree that we should use the more common and explain that many editions of Suetonius (or Suetonius himself) vary. Septentrionalis 23:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

It appears the page has been moved, so I'm removing the request tag. FiggyBee 15:20, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Many editions vary, it is true. However, I have not found one in which the phrase is presented otherwise than Iacta alea est. An encyclopedia should be correct. It is not a question of public oppinion. If the phrase is Iacta alea est the article should have this title. Redirecting from Alea jacta est should be sufficient to satisfy the public oppinion.

If I am wrong and there are other ancient authors (or other editions of Suetonius) who present the phrase otherwise, this should be explained in the article. Otherwise the article does not help in any way as it leaves people who read it more confused than before.

Afil 02:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

"If the phrase is Iacta alea est" is exactly the issue. Both word orders work fine in latin and mean the same thing (with a slightly stronger emphasis on cast in the original - "Cast the die is"), and for whatever reason alea iacta est is how the phrase is more commonly used today. What [phrase] would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine? FiggyBee 07:45, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I provided the quotation from Suetonius which indicates that the Phrase is Iact alea est (see part 1 of this discussion page. If there is some other version and oppinion, let whoever knows about it show the quotation. For the time being, as far as this discussion is concerned there is a single quotation presented, the one above from Suetonius and all the rest is just hear say,

Afil 05:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

But 99% of users searching for this phrase will not have found it in Suetonius, and, for whatever reason, the googlefight shows that AIE is the much more common usage than IAE. FiggyBee 13:18, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Literal Translation?

The english translation contains two ambiguous words: 'die' could be one of two dice or a metal stamp. 'cast' could mean thrown or formed out of molten metal. I'm assuming the original latin doesn't have that ambiguity, but I unfortunately don't know latin to choose which.--Spyforthemoon 16:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The first is right in both cases; the translation is traditional and should be left alone, even if explained. Septentrionalis 18:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, just to make it quite clear, there is no ambiguity in the latin. alea can only mean a die as in dice, and iacio (which comes down to us in english as eject) can only mean cast as in "throw". "The die (which you strike coins with) has been cast (out of metal)" in latin would be something like moneta fusa est. FiggyBee 05:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually in latin there is no singular word for "dice". Alea is a plurale tantum. Therefore "The dice are cast" would also be a viable translation. --Mirage GSM 07:41, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure? My dictionary reckons it's 1F, and "iacta est" is a singular participle. It's certainly the case that the Romans used "alea" to mean "a game of dice" as well as "a die", so the plural makes sense in a figurative translation. But you need to have the singular if you want a literal translation. FiggyBee 09:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Mirage, see this article: [1]. Also, if it were a plural, wouldn't it have been alea jacta sunt? Rwflammang 16:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The literal Latin translation of alea iacta est should be "the die has been cast." iacta est is a third conjugation passive present perfect verb for a third person singular feminine noun, and if by itself without a noun, would be translated as "she has been cast." I am unfamiliar with the noun alea but since the verb takes a third person singular noun, it should not be translated as "dice" but instead should be translated as either "a game of dice" or just "a die". Thus I am changing the translation to "the die has been cast." Source: Vergil's Aeneid Selections from Books 1,2,4,6,10, & 12 by Barbara Weiden Boyd, ISBN 086516584. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gnaixgnem (talk • contribs) 03:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Erasmus

I heard that Erasmus thought the phrase had been corrupted, and that it really was Jacta alea esto, i.e., a third person singular future perfect imperative. It's an interesting point that I would like to include. Does anyone have a cite? Rwflammang 13:45, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Lewis & Short mention the Jacta alea esto, although they do not mention Erasmus. See [2]. Rwflammang 16:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The reason they say this is because the Greek phrase quoted by Plutarch is in the imperative. The actual Latin word order also probably reflects an attempt to follow the Greek [Let-be-cast] [die] by at least putting some part of the verbal complex first. Hquain (talk) 14:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Asterix

In each edition of the enormously popular French comic book Asterix, once Asterix sinks the pirates' ship, the first mate says to the captain, "Alea jacta est."

Actually, he says something different each time, though it's always a Latin cliché (e.g. in Asterix and the Magic Carpet (IIRC) he says "Sic transit gloria mundi"; in Asterix and the Roman Agent he says, before the ship sinks, something like "auri sacra fames". I guess he says "alea iacta est" (or the other spelling) in one of the books but certainly not all of them that he appears in. Hairy Dude (talk) 20:26, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed; it is used frequently in the books and animated films by Caesar himself, though, so I've amended the Asterix section to reflect that. -- Guybrush (talk) 06:08, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Literary references

Article says 'The phrase is used repeatedly to comic effect in the French Asterix comic books along with other Latin phrases such as "Veni, vidi, but not quite vici"'. That is NOT a Latin phrase.

The French Asterix books, or at least the first 27, do NOT contain 'but not quite', which is English. Either omit 'French' as superfluous, or give the quotation as originated by Uderzo/Goscinny.

94.30.84.71 (talk) 12:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Die-cast definition?

I am guessing this is from a US contributor (mold vs mould) but I'd like to query this information that it is commonly misunderstood in this sense - ie the mould has been created; I have never come across the phrase being misused in this sense in the UK or in anything I have ever read. Additionally, as the information has no supporting citation or references, I am suspicious of its veracity.

Suggestion - either provide supporting evidence that the phrase is misunderstood in this way with some degree of frequency and commonality, but let's make it clear that this is a misunderstanding. Alternatively, remove it, as I get the feeling the only person who misunderstands it this way might be the person who posted it?

Mungo Shuntbox (talk) 13:50, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you've heard of this manufacturing process known as "die casting", often used with models and, particularly die-cast toys.

I agree that the wording leaves something to be desired, but it is a connection worth making and a definition worth establishing. This is, after all, an encyclopedia, which means to me a comprehensive resource for information on a given subject expressly for people who don't know said subject forward and backward, and thus would benefit from having all correct and relevant information possible. I am not, however, sure it beggars a direct citation, as it's a simple matter of language usage and meaning which could be inferred through usage of / reference to the above articles for die casting and die-cast toys.

Finally, why would you presume the person who authored that section misunderstands it? It would seem obvious s/he does not, actually, misunderstand it, but rather can see through experience with the language and culture where someone else could: particularly children, who are a common and likely user of this site for reference and clarification, and who might wonder at the correlation between the phrases. besieged^talk 18:37, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Be explicit

This Alea iacta est article should be explicit, saying that the phrase has nothing to do with any die casting origins.

Else users, due to the unfortunate coincidence of double meanings for both "die" and "cast" in English will certainly guess the phrase (in English) could not be related to "lower class" street corner dice games, but instead be related to importaint metal industry etc.! Jidanni (talk) 00:30, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

The phrase means : The dice is cast

As in The dice is thrown, No more bets — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.241.107.196 (talk) 22:44, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

The metal-casting angle was added as a "common origin myth" a few days ago, but with no source. Wikipedia requires references to confirm that this is both common and a myth, and I couldn't find any sources using it at all. --Lord Belbury (talk) 09:12, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Rubicon, another idiom with the same meaning?

The lede currently says "The same event inspired another idiom with the same meaning, crossing the Rubicon." I would dispute this meaning, I think it's sloppy. You could use them in the same sentence, "he has crossed to Rubicon, so the die is cast." It's like two of the laws of thermodynamics, the first part (Rubicon) emphasizes that there is no turning back; the second part (the die) emphasizes that the future is unforeseeable and even random/up to the Fates. 2603:8001:D300:A631:0:0:0:10D0 (talk) 20:04, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree that they're not identical, and have reworded it to "The same event inspired another related idiom". --Yodin^T 10:40, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

What's with Terence?

Under "Meaning and forms" the first sentence is "Caesar was said to have borrowed the phrase from Menander, the famous Greek writer of comedy, whom he appreciated more than the Roman playwright Terence." which seems odd to me. What's up with Terence? What does he have to do with it? (talk) Volodiscere (talk) 14:12, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Good question. It seems odd to me too. Let's delete it. —DIV
Support good-faith IP editors: insist that Wikipedia's administrators adhere to Wikipedia's own policies on keeping range-blocks as a last resort, with minimal breadth and duration, in order to reduce adverse collateral effects; support more precisely targeted restrictions such as protecting only articles themselves, not associated Talk pages, or presenting pages as semi-protected, or blocking only mobile edits when accessed from designated IP ranges.
(1.129.106.203 (talk) 12:45, 16 July 2024 (UTC))

Might be worth restoring part of this, to show that Caesar appreciated Menander (which makes the case for him quoting the play more likely), but without mentioning Terence. --Yodin^T 10:41, 20 September 2024 (UTC)