Talk:Alexander Gordon (British Army officer, born 1786)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. I will note that this was the consensus, but there was a late alternative suggestion that could be considered if this name is not acceptable. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:01, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

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The Hon. Sir Alexander Gordon → Alexander Gordon (British Army officer) – I'm not too sure about this, so other suggestions are welcome. Basically, I know it's standard practice not to have "The Hon." in article titles, but I don't think this guy can simply be Sir Alexander Gordon because a few of the people listed at Alexander Gordon were also sirs. Again, not too sure about the proposed title, so if someone has a better idea or I've missed something in WP:NCROY that would apply here, please suggest an alternative. Jenks24 (talk) 05:17, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

I suggest "Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Alexander Gordon". It gets 274 results on Google Books. It's even in a book title: At Wellington's right hand: the letters of Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Alexander Gordon, 1808-1815 (2003). Kauffner (talk) 14:05, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

• Support Wikipedia doesn't employ titular text in article names. There is certainly no need for military rank or titulars here. The suggested disambiguation seems appropriate. Simply (military officer) would work too.--Labattblueboy (talk) 11:21, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

You are quite right that neither "Sir" nor "The Hon." belong in the article title. Of course, we don't normally include military rank either. But in this case there are many Alexander Gordons to disambiguate from, including two other military officers: Alexander Gordon, 2nd Duke of Gordon, as well as one who served in the Russian army and was a biographer of Peter the Great. Kauffner (talk) 12:46, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• I just moved the page to Sir Alexander Gordon as that is an acceptable dab extension and no other article title currently occupies it (see WP:NCROY). I moved it back when I realised that this WP:RM was talking place. I do not think that officer or similar is of much use if "Sir..." is not acceptable because lots of men called Alexander Gordon have been in the British Army. The problems with ranks in general (excuse the pun) is that they do not hold that rank for most of their notable life. I would suggest that if a dab extension is needed that Waterloo is used Alexander Gordon (Waterloo) as anyone searching for the man is likely to know that he was killed at Waterloo and that is basically all the introduction says of him at the moment. But I am not particularly fussed so long as the article title is moved from the current name.-- PBS (talk) 06:00, 6 September 2011 (UTC) I have changed my mind having looked into it further. His published works makes him notable (among scholars) for more than dying at Waterloo and there are not that many notable men called just "Alexander Gordon" in the the British Army so I think Alexander Gordon (British staff officer) will be a suitable dab extension. -- PBS (talk) 07:51, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Two Alexander Gordons

I made an edit that included this information:

Alexander Gordon's campaign journal and his campaign letters have been published in two volumes:

• H.C. Wylly, ed. (2009) [1909]. A Cavalry Officer in the Corunna Campaign, 1808-1809; The Journal of Captain Gordon of the 15th Hussars (reprint ed.). N&M Press. ISBN 9781847349910. "This is a valuable eye-witness account of an often overlooked campaign by a perceptive and informed professional observer".

I may have jumped to the wrong conclusion. Two men with the same name both with the same grandfather, But as the editor who altered the information has not made any other edits. I think we need to discuss it further.

There are two Alexander Gordons whose experiences in the Peninsular war have been published in two volumes:

The first book mentioned here is not by the Alexander Gordon [(1786–1815)] described above but is an account written by Alexander Gordon (1781- 1872) natural son of the Third Earl of Aberdeen and his mistress Penelope Dearing. His commission was puchased for him in 1803. After service in the peninsular war he sold his commission in 1811 on his marriage to Albinia Elizabeth Cumberland. He was acknowledged by the Third Earl of Aberdeen as being his son and was provided for in the Earl's will.

• H.C. Wylly, ed. (2009) [1909]. A Cavalry Officer in the Corunna Campaign, 1808-1809; The Journal of Captain Gordon of the 15th Hussars (reprint ed.). N&M Press. ISBN 9781847349910. "This is a valuable eye-witness account of an often overlooked campaign by a perceptive and informed professional observer".

Notes

-- PBS (talk) 13:18, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

The information concerning Alexander Gordon, illegitimate son of the 3rd Earl of Aberdeen, his military carreer and memoir is taken from "A History of Ellon, Aberdeenshire" pp 65-66 supplied to me in pdf format from the Ellon library <Ellon.Library@aberdeenshire.gov.uk> during research into Dering family history. His parentage is confirmed in the 3rd Earl of Aberdeen's will of 1801, available from http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/.--Gordonalec (talk) 15:22, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

I found conformation that they are not the same person in the editors preface to the work "At Wellington's right hand:the letters of Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Alexander Gordon, 1808-1815" Alexander Gordon, Rory Muir (ed, 2003) "Another potential mis-identification can also be dealt with here: Alexander Gordon, the brother of Lord Aberdeen and author of these letters, was not the same as Captain Alexander Gordon of the 15th Hussars whose interesting journal of the Coruña Campaign was first published in 1913 and reprinted in 1990. They were however related for Captain Gordon of the Hussars was the illegitimate but acknowledged son of the third Earl of Aberdeen, who was the grandfather of our Alexander Gordon." -- PBS (talk) 20:48, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Given the above I have created a new page Alexander Gordon (British cavalry officer), moved this page to Alexander Gordon (British staff officer) and made Alexander Gordon (British Army officer) a dab page. -- PBS (talk) 23:13, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

@user:Blaue Max per WP:BRD: Here is a reliable source that notes the possible "mis-identification" between Alexander Gordon (British staff officer) and Alexander Gordon (British cavalry officer) and the reasons why the more usual dab extension Alexander Gordon (British Army officer) could not be used:

• Muir, Rory (2003). At Wellington's right hand: the letters of Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Alexander Gordon, 1808-1815 (illustrated ed.). Sutton. p. viii. ISBN 0-7509-3380-1.

Another potential mis-identification can also be dealt with here: Alexander Gordon, the brother of Lord Aberdeen and author of these letters, was not the same as Captain Alexander Gordon of the 15th Hussars whose interesting journal of the Coruna Campaign was first published in 1913 and reprinted in 1990. They were, however, related, for Captain Gordon of the Hussars was the illegitimate but acknowledged son of the third Earl of Aberdeen, who was the grandfather of our Alexander Gordon."

The point is that these two men need specific disambiguation, because unless the dab extension is going to be too large to be practicable identifying them from the article tile is not possible. This is not true for Alexander Gordon, 4th Duke of Gordon which has an extension "4th Duke of Gordon" that neither of these two men could possibly have and he is also a generation older. As there are lots of Alexander Gordons can you cite a source that states that either or both these men have been mistaken for Alexander Gordon, 4th Duke of Gordon or vice versa? Please do not reinstate your edit until you have a consensus to do so (Per WP:BRD). -- PBS (talk) 12:16, 22 January 2015 (UTC)