Talk:Also sprach Zarathustra

Requested move 8 November 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Favonian (talk) 18:46, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

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Also sprach Zarathustra → Thus Spoke Zarathustra (musical work) – I did a double take when I saw the musical work popping up under Also sprach Zarathustra, while Nietzsche's work on which it was based came up us Thus Spoke Zarathustra. By any measure both the book and the musical work are both "Thus Spoke/Spake Zarathustra" in English and "Also sprach Zarathustra" in German, and the current setup seems to simply arbitrarily name the musical work in German and the book in English. However, a simple Google Scholar test shows that the musical work is not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for Also sprach Zarathustra - of the 19,100 hits I got for the term, 14,400 hits remained with "Strauss" removed, compared to just 3,220 hits with "Nietzsche" removed - the obvious implication being that the work title of Also sprach Zarathustra is held in considerably greater association with Nietzsche than it is with Strauss. I would personally expect both Thus Spoke/Spake Zarathustra and "Also sprach Zarathustra" to direct first to the work by Nietzsche with hatnotes pointing to the musical work by Strauss. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:51, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

• Addendum: I didn't add this initially, because I didn't want to complicate the discussion, but this move to make way for a disambiguation seemed like the obvious alternative outcome in case of no agreement over whether Nietzsche's book had a stronger claim to the title, and this no agreement on a primary topic. But Strauss' work is clearly not the primary topic. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:02, 9 November 2022 (UTC)
• Strongly Oppose: The composition by Strauss is universally referred to as "Also sprach Zarathustra" in English. A quick Google search of "Thus Spoke Zarathustra strauss" will confirm this. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 12:51, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Eldomtom2: That search produces a mere fraction (a tenth) of the results that you get when you search "Thus Spoke Zarathustra Nietzsche". Iskandar323 (talk) 13:23, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Ngrams confirms a similar if less dramatic pattern - for sure it can be said that the Strauss work is in no way the clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC here. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:25, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  You missed my point. My point was that searching "Thus Spoke Zarathustra strauss" brings up pages referring to the work by Strauss as "Also sprach Zarathustra". It does not bring up pages calling it "Thus Spoke Zarathustra". This is even more pronounced on Google Scholar - "Thus Spoke Zarathustra strauss" brings up papers on the philosopher Leo Strauss, while searching for "Also sprach Zarathustra strauss" brings up papers on the composition by Richard Strauss.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 13:46, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  Surely that just shows that in the case of the Strauss work, the German is more prevalently used, not that it has greater claim to the title? I don't really mind if the disambiguation is in English or German. If that's the only problem then I am equally happy with Also sprach Zarathustra (musical work). I simply defaulted to English. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:09, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  For clarity, are you arguing to move Also sprach Zarathustra (disambiguation) to Also sprach Zarathustra?--Eldomtom2 (talk) 18:29, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

  Also, you should probably look at the discussion on this topic that happened three years ago. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 13:50, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. The German version is far, far commoner. I understand the point about it not necessarily being the primary topic, but that's another discussion. It certainly should not be moved to its English translation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:57, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Necrothesp: Q: How and in what format do you start a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC discussion? I've only ever seen that discussed within an RM context. And wouldn't the process be the same? This page would need to move to some sort of title with a parenthetical disambiguate to pave the way for a disambiguation page to be created. Aren't the issues the same? Iskandar323 (talk) 14:58, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose: Whether or not one agrees with the inconsistency in this usage, the fact remains that Also sprach Zarathustra is the most commonly used name in English when referring to the Strauss tone poem. This is hardly a unique case. For example, I have never heard one of his major late works referred to as "Metamorphoses," even though that would be its English translation. Nor does usage typically prefer The Sea, The Woeful Song, Clowns, and so on even though that would make more sense. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:33, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.