Talk:Bethnal Green trio

Fork...

One of the women is dead. One is in prison in Kurdistan, and wants to return to the UK. And the last woman remains in the tiny rump of Daesh territory.

I was going to ask the contributor who started this article if they would agree with a fork, but The Almightey Drill has been blocked for sockpuppetry.

So, if there was once a role for the three to share a single article, does it make sense now? Geo Swan (talk) 07:20, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Maybe a more snappy title is needed too. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 13:44, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I repeat my suggestion all three may be independently notable... maybe they should also be in an article listing all well-known list of brides of Daesh? Geo Swan (talk) 02:44, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree with Geo Swan, Shamima Begum specifically has gained notoriety in the UK for wanting to come back recently. I don't think there is a purpose for a single article uniting all three women anymore. ccixam(talk) 14:38, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the Geo Swans proposal to fork Shamima Begum out into it's own article, especially as public interest in her increases including around the debate on revocation of UK citizenship. I can't see a justification for separate articles for all three of them, especially as one of them is now apparently deceased according to media reports. Therefore I feel a fork is the most appropriate course, leaving this article intact, albeit I would agree with Lugnuts that it needs a better title, and to that I would suggest possibly "Bethnal Green Trio", as they've been referred to in a number of media outlets such as and? Aurourafx (talk) 01:19, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

• Abase, Begum and Sultana followed the example of a fellow student who preceded them, Sharmeena Begum. So, maybe not a trio...

• I have been working on an article about a joint Canadian-American bride of ISIS, on a non-WMF wiki, with looser inclusion criteria. I didn't start it here as I suspect it would trigger claims it didn't comply with BLP. Some contributors are quick to claim BLP. In the case of two American women, who were recently interviewed by the NYTimes, most of the details that make them look bad come from their interviews.

• So, should individuals be protected from having the wikipedia cover details of their lives they willingly offered to reporters who interviewed them?

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 02:56, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

The proposal at the head of the article page makes sense. Shamima Begum is now notable in her own right, and the suggested title for the complementary article - List of brides of ISIL - seems reasonable. Go for it. Silas Stoat (talk) 09:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Agree. And if Bethnal Green Trio is the WP:COMMONNAME, then go for that too. Compare with the West Memphis Three, for example. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 17:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

I think the fork is a no-brainer. She is notable in her own right. WP:BOLD. I have started Shamima Begum by removing the redirect. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 17:51, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 18:16, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, also. Silas Stoat (talk) 18:18, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

• I support all of the above, including Bethnal Green Trio as the title for concision (while still mentioning all of them by name in the first lead sentence). I also support an infobox for their statuses. wumbolo ^^^ 20:24, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Another bold act. It seems "Bethnal Green trio" has support. This also makes sense to remove the duplication of the name Shamima Begum from the titles. Google search shows around 300 results for "Bethnal Green trio" all the way back to 2015. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 10:31, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay, I've come late to this and put a whom tag in the article. I personally wouldn't go with this name, preferring ISIL Brides..., but there maybe is a consensus here for the ...trio. Silas Stoat (talk) 19:06, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

@Silas Stoat: Added a source. As usual, it's difficult to gauge when a casual mention becomes a standing title. The previous list of names seemed arbitrary. "ISIL Brides..." may be too 'charged'. There also is Brides of Daesh which effectively means the same thing. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 21:08, 23 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, agreed, it can be difficult. My concern with 'trio' is that there are likely to be other women in a similar predicament who become notable. Perhaps if, or when, that happens we can look at the title again. Thanks. Silas Stoat (talk) 16:09, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Ah, I wrote the above too soon - before taking the link to the new article Brides of Daesh. I guess that article is good for new people coming into the category who wouldn't otherwise be noteworthy. I'm not sure about the title though. Bethnal Green trio at least has a load of sources; Brides of Daesh has very few, maybe because 'Daesh' is not used as widely as ISIS/ISIL.. It's a redirect - silly me! Silas Stoat (talk) 16:16, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I'd argue that the events relating to these three individuals leaving is noteworthy in it's own right, putting aside the similarities in what they then went on to do. It was a cause of substantial discussion in the UK that 3 schoolgirls could go missing at once from the same school without anyone/any authority being able to detect and prevent it. In light of the apparent consensus around the name Bethnal Green Trio at least for now, I'm going to remove the template relating to this discussion from the article, while obviously it will be preseved on the talk page. My apologies if this is an incorrect action, if it is please someone revert it, I'm still relatively new to contributing to the discussion rather than just making minor/uncontroversial edits!Aurourafx (talk) 20:23, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2019

I was writing more in source mode about updates and then I clicked preview changes and was told I couldn't edit, but each time i would list a new source I would click preview and it was fine. I have written a lot and provided sources. How do I get the edit in there? This was my edit to go straight after sources 24 and 25 :

On 19 February, Begum's mother received a letter from Home Office stating that Begum had her British citizenship revoked and asked her mother to inform her daughter of the decision. ITV News obtained the letter to give to Begum on air. Begum opened and read out loud the letter and stated that it was "unjust" and "hard to swallow", adding "My family made it sound like it would be a lot easier for me to come back to the UK when I was speaking to them in Baghouz". When asked "What would your message to the home secretary be?" by ITV News Security Editor Rohit Kachroo, she asked for her case to be reviewed again, with "a bit more sympathy and understanding" and to give her a reason "why they see me as a threat to the U.K.". There was growing debate over whether or not this was even a legal decision. Amendments were made to British national laws in 2014 which made it easier to strip dual nationals of their British citizenship. These measures were primarily aimed at terrorists who could potentially undermine UK security, in Begum's case: those who fled to Syria to fight and were attempting to return home. According to the letter given to her, she has the right to appeal to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC). Others have also questioned what citizenship her son has and will have. In an interview with Sky News, Begum revealed information on her newborn, "It's a boy. I named him after my old son [who died] - that's what my husband wanted." and talked about being under IS care. She was asked if she knew about the beheadings that they did and responded with "I was okay with it. Because, you know, I started becoming religious just before I left. From what I heard, Islamically that is all allowed. So I was okay with it." Sawhitney36 (talk) 17:44, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. DannyS712 (talk) 17:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

References

Merger with Sharmeena Begum

There is an AfD going on for Sharmeena Begum, the first of the girls from Bethnal Green Academy to join ISIL in Syria. The AfD takes place here. There is a conversation if that article be merged into Bethnal Green trio. This would a) broaden the scope of this article and b) require a renaming of this article. Pinging the editors how have been part of the naming/fork discussion for views as this would reopen the conversation. @Lugnuts, Geo Swan, Ccixam, Aurourafx, Silas Stoat, and Wumbolo:. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 16:48, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

It would appear as though this is case closed as the AfD reached the consensus of do not delete, which also clear up any article naming issues related to this. With that in mind I'm going to remove the template regarding this from the front page as consensus appears to have been reached elsewhere on the other article remaining independent in it's own right. Aurourafx (talk) 20:24, 8 March 2019 (UTC)