Talk:Ancestral background of presidents of the United States

Proposed split of "Ulster-Scots" away from "Irish"; Possibly to the "Scottish" category

Genetically Ulster Scots are people of Scottish descent, descended from the Ulster Plantation. Therefore we should move "Ulster Scots" from the Irish category into the Scottish category and renaming it "Scottish (including Ulster-Scots)" then renumbering the map, or simply give it back as it's own category then renumbering the map. @Drdpw, @MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 02:00, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

We've had some trouble deciding exactly how to detail this in the past, including one proposal pitching that we separate Ulster Scots as a separate group entirely with Irish being for those of Irish Catholic descent only (which would leave only JFK and Reagan). I'm iffy on that proposal even though the current one does not allow one to know who is who unless they look at the references for each, but I understand the current format is not perfect. On the subject of moving Ulster Scots to Scottish I'd have to disagree as while Ulster Scots do have ancestral origins in Scotland, they're considered an ethnic group within Ireland as their move to the country was what made them Ulster Scots to begin with. Once they resided in Northern Ireland they greatly influenced the culture there and are presently accepted as an Irish identity. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 01:49, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. Yes genetically the Ulster-Scots are perhaps more Scottish, although they are a bit unique, in residing in Ireland, while being partilly loyal to the British, crown which is why they voted to remain apart of the U.K during partition. Moving to the Scottish category is a radical proposal, I am more comfortable with giving them there own, as you said, they are an "ethnic group" in there own right. So i guess this is a discussion about giving them there own category now. Having an near empty column is not rare for this page as the Kenyan category has one. I argue we should give them there own category. Being there own ethnic group, with there own language in Ireland, Scots Language, and there own unique culture, which fits the criteria as an ethnic group. For these reasons, I think we should give them there own category! MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken, B. M. L. Peters (talk) 00:50, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

That's fair. I can understand the argument you're putting forth in regards to the differences between them, and I don't believe the categories being sparse is any real viable argument against it as yes, Kenyan is just one for the time being, as is Swiss which is similarly limited, but the intention is accuracy and factual information above presentational concerns. Considering as you've swayed me, you're in favor, and the other user you mentioned previously edited it into the article a while back, I'll go about making those changes. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 01:59, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Awesome! Glad we came to an agreement! I just think they are too unique to be placed along a group, where as alone would be better. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken B. M. L. Peters (talk) 19:14, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate the difficult issue you are trying to resolve, but there are some inaccuracies in the current list of Ulster-scots presidents. I am only familiar with the irish ancestry of Nixon (ancestors from Kilkenny area), Clinton (ancestors from Fermanagh in Ulster) and Obama (ancestors from Offaly). Nobody who lived in Kilkenny or Offaly would be described as Ulster scots. The classification of the Clinton ancestors would depend on their religion. - Rye 212 (talk) 14:56, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

@Rye 212: If you can get me the relevant references with regards to those three I can see about hopefully clearing their statuses up. I do believe though, at least according to our references, they all share Ulster-Scots ancestry nevertheless. MyPreferredUsernameWasTaken (talk) 06:25, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

How far back?

John FitzGerald Kennedy, carried a non-Irish family name, in this example that of a noble, 12th century, Anglo-Norman family, recruited to restore the King of Leinster. His ancestors migrated, in the mid 19th century from Ireland, but have a recorded Welsh, English and Norman-French lineage, so is he purely Irish, as the territory his ancestors boarded a boat to the US, or does their ancestory tick a few additional boxes? A.j.roberts (talk) 13:22, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

It isn't a "non-Irish" name any more than Norman-derived names aren't English. Surnames in the British Isles come from a variety of different sources, and that includes up to a third of Irish surnames that came from Medieval England (like Fitzgerald). How far back? We're not going back to the Middle Ages; this page is already ridiculous enough. Jonathan f1 (talk) 21:23, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

According to this genealogy of Kennedy, he was a descendant of John Fitzgerald (c. 1670-1736), an American colonist in the Colony of Virginia. This ancestor's family background is unknown. I am not certain if there was any connection to the FitzGerald dynasty. Dimadick (talk) 07:36, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Vertical colums

Can we please get rid of the vertical columns and make them horizontal. It's horrible to try to read. Viktory02 (talk) 19:50, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

is FindMyPast a viable reference?

A sponsored blog post at FindMyPast is used several times in this article as a reference. Is this site considered a reputable source? It seems like shallow self-published research, and doesn't cite its own sources for many of its entries. Further, they seem to contradict other material on Wikipedia. Harding's entry cites several ancestral soures, but the Wikipedia entry for Harding's father says that he was born of Old Stock Americans.

Would there be any objection to removing this source and replacing its invocations with fact tags until more reliable sources became available? -- Mikeblas (talk) 20:24, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Nationalities or ethnicities?

Why on Wikipedia is it possible to say "German" before Germany existed as a state but forbidden to say "British" for anyone born in England, Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales at any time in history let alone after the creation of the modern United Kingdom? There is no single German ethnic homogenous group. Ditto for the French, Belgians, Swiss, and many others. Sure, you can group people as 'Germanic' going back a long time. But so does 'British' pre-date the modern form of UK a long time. The ancient Greeks knew the concept of Britain and the British. And the Dutch are Germanic. Frantic Wikipedia editors who police this rule apply it to no other nation on earth. 82.21.19.72 (talk) 09:31, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

The attributed ancient Greek understanding of "British" seems to be at variance from that of others such as e.g. the Romans and North Europeans who had more recorded distinction of the different peoples on the island, possibly due to more prolonged contact. MBRZ48

Scotch-Irish (Ulster Scots) vs Scots and the Irish

For clarity:

• Scotch-Irish refers to the Ulster Scots, who I will be referencing as "Scotch-Irish".
• "Ancestry" here means blood. If you were born to a Mexican father and Japanese mother, you have Mexican and Japanese ancestry. I use it different from ethnicity, which says that if you were born to the aforementioned parents on Irish soil, you are (first-generation) Irish.

Recently, I saw an edit on a page making the assertion that Irish and Scotch-Irish are essentially similar and should not be delineated as separate categories.

It read like this:

• "Debate: the distinction between Irish and Ulster Scots separate ethno-nationalist groups is a post-Great Irish Famine invention used by Irish-American Protestants to differentiate themselves from Irish Catholics at a time when Irish Catholic immigrants were widely discriminated against in the labour market, housing, and other areas. Prior to the 1840s, the early US presidents listed on this page as Ulster-Scots would not have described themselves as such And would likely in fact have considered themselves Irish and/or British. This table should not therefore identify the two as separate categories."

The section had no citations, so I removed it, and then did some cursory digging into the history of the Scotch-Irish. They're not Irish, they're, surprise, Scots who moved to Ireland, particularly Ulster. Some moved to the United States.

Now, at first, I'd thought this was fine. But I thought about it and realized I didn't understand this a whole lot. The Scotch-Irish share a culture--they are an ethnic group, to be sure--but, if they're ancestrally just one part of the overall Scottish diaspora, then does the page need to specifically mention presidents with Scotch-Irish ancestry? Andrew Jackson's dad, for example, lived in Ireland, but he's still of Scottish ancestry, and was essentially a first-generation immigrant to Ireland anyways. I'm not saying the Scotch-Irish are not an ethnic group, but that it is no special distinction on this page.

For reference, imagine listing a hypothetical future US president's ancestry as Korean, then Sakhalin Korean. Koreans in Russia share a lot of culture, but is it a specific distinction to make on a page like this? (Especially if, for example, in the case of Andrew Jackson, he has no ancestors of Irish blood.)

Importantly, though, I'm not saying to remove the distinction, I'd rather talk about it first. Fringe, Suspect The (talk) 21:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

There are different theories about when "Scots-Irish" came into widespread use (to refer specifically to Irish-American Protestants), but in any event it's an anachronism when applied to Jackson. Jackson did not identify as "Scots-Irish," "Ulster Scots" or "Scottish" -he identified his background as Irish. Jonathan f1 (talk) 21:12, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Eisenhower's British Ancestry

The article says that Ike may not have had British ancestry. He did. Please note this Findagrave reference: Daniel Stover Jr. (1780-1865) - Find a Grave Memorial. Follow under Simon Peter Stover and you will see Ida Stover Eisenhower listed. Daniel Jr. was married to a Hannah--definitely a British name. I am a genealogist related to Ike. My grandmother Nettie Stover Jackson was his first cousin. I have Ike's Stover background traced back into the 1300s and 1400s. I do not fee comfortable editing the document, so, if you find what I have said acceptable, I would hope that the change would be made. Thank you. Stpauljackson5 (talk) 20:53, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

You're a genealogist who seems to be highly impressed by last names. Certainly some other genealogist has documented Ike's ancestry and has found these British ancestors. If not, it seems more likely that Find a Grave is wrong, which wouldn't be the first time. Jonathan f1 (talk) 21:19, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for correcting the Eisenhower article. The genealogy of the Presidents published by the New England Historical Society lists Mary Hannah and Daniel Stover as Dwight's ancestors. A book entitled "Augusta County Marriages, 1748--1850 lists them as getting married in Trinity Episcopal Church in Staunton, VA on March 30, 1803. Daniel came from a Mennonite family. When Mary and Daniel moved to Mt. Sidney, they joined Mt. Pisgah United Brethren Church. The United Brethren Church united with the Methodist Church in the 1960s, I believe. 140.228.204.24 (talk) 00:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Grover Cleveland's Guernsey ancestry

Grover Cleveland had ancestry from Guernsey as per his articles. HockeyFanNHL (talk) 20:30, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Bush Family Swedish Ancestry?

On the Wikipedia page for the Bush family it says: "According to the Swedish Colonial Society, the Bush family also has Swedish ancestry, going back ten generations to a Swedish farmer named Måns Andersson who migrated from Gothenburg to New Sweden (Delaware)." Is this worth putting on this page or is it too far back in time? And is Swedish Colonial Society a reliable source? ClovisBarnhopper (talk) 16:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Harris

For Kamala Harris, would we look for the specific African groups her father Donald J. Harris has ancestry from, or would we just list her ancestry as "Jamaican"? Sekundenlang (talk) 14:20, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

In what way does this article contribute to mankind's knowledge? It's a serious question because we've arrived at the day when determining the ancestry of a US president is going to create controversy. In the 21st Century, the ancestries of US presidents will be much less British, much more mixed, and more open to interpretation. I don't see similar ancestry pages for other world leaders, so it's worth considering what encyclopedic value this article has. Jonathan f1 (talk) 21:17, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I'd say that if she is elected, we should list her as Irish, Afro-Caribbean (using the Pan-African flag) and Tamil (Indian). Irish comes from her father's ancestry. --Sekundenlang (talk) 13:25, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Gerald Ford's Polish ancestry

Gerald Ford had Polish ancestry. On the page about ancestral background of vice presidents his Polish ancestry is mentioned but not here. Why? Dennte (talk) 11:32, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

The flags are all mess-up

Look at the top 217.180.216.79 (talk) 00:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC)