Talk:Andrea (Macedonian singer)

Requested move 18 February 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. This discussion is split 5-3 between support and opposition. Supporting arguments suggest that the mononym "Andrea" is much more common and more recognisable than the full name "Andrea Koevska", whereas opposing arguments suggest that the current title appropriately makes use of natural disambiguation and that WP:STAGENAME does not apply to situations where an artist's stage name is her real first name. Looking at the wording of WP:QUALIFIER, natural disambiguation and parenthetical disambiguation are regarded as equally acceptable methods; opponents of the move, who prefer the current naturally disambiguated title, have not refuted the argument that the mononym "Andrea" is more common in English-language sources. Moreover, although WP:STAGENAME explicitly includes situations where [t]he name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources ... is not the person's "real" name, the wording does not exclude situations where the most-often used name is the person's real name. Overall, support for the move is stronger than opposition both numerically and on adherence to policy. (closed by non-admin page mover) feminist (talk) Слава Україні! 10:11, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

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Andrea Koevska → Andrea (Macedonian singer) – She is known by her first name only. Europe2016 (talk) 20:36, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Compare Tanja Mihhailova-Saar, Hovig Demirjian, Eliot Vassamillet, Albina Grčić, Frans Jeppsson Wall, Justs Sirmais. — Ætoms ^[talk] 11:26, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nomination. Analogous to Andrea (Bulgarian singer). For comparison see List of one-word stage names. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 17:10, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

  @Roman Spinner: The analogy with Andrea (Bulgarian singer) is inaccurate, since in that case "Andrea" is not her real (first) name. See WP:NATURAL which states: "Using an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title. Do not, however, use obscure or made-up names."

  This means that "Andrea Rumenova Andreeva" (= made-up name) cannot be used as an unambiguous article title, and adding the parenthetical disambiguation "(Bulgarian singer)" is the only valid option. In this case, however, there are plenty of sources that refer to Andrea Koevska by her full name. While the full name would normally not be the preferred title (just as with the examples I mentioned above), natural disambiguation is preferred over parenthetical disambiguation (see WP:NCDAB). — Ætoms ^[talk] 18:26, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

@Ætoms: Because it is standard Wikipedia practice to list performers by their stage names whether or not those stage names are their legal names, the main title headers have to be Andrea (Bulgarian singer) and Andrea (Macedonian singer), since "Andrea (singer)" is incomplete disambiguation — Andrea (American singer, born 1943), Andrea (American singer, born 1963), Andrea (American singer, born 1969), Andrea (American singer, born 1975), Andrea (American singer, born 1982), Andrea (Colombian singer), Andrea (German singer, born 1966), Andrea (German singer, born 1967), Andrea (German singer, born 1996), Andrea (Hungarian singer), Andrea (Indian singer), Andrea (Italian singer), Andrea (Macedonian singer), Andrea (Montenegrin singer), Andrea (Thai singer). —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:26, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

You are aware that these are all redirects? The actual titles of the articles you mention are the singers' full names. So it is actually common practice to include the last name rather than a parenthetical disambiguation... — Ætoms ^[talk] 22:24, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Although in my initial "support" vote I had mentioned, "For comparison see List of one-word stage names", the formatting of that list WP:PIPEs parenthetical qualifiers, thus making it appear as if the nearly-two-thousand names listed there are all stand-alone primary topics. However, a glance at the markup will confirm that the great majority of those names do in fact use parentheses and, of course, none uses a last name. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 18:35, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Then most of these would be violations of WP:NCDAB / WP:NATURAL if the 'stage names' are just their first names. If the common name is ambiguous and another acceptable, unambiguous name exists (e.g. including the last name), then the latter should be used. — Ætoms ^[talk] 22:29, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

RM nominations concerning mononymous performers are a relatively common occurrence (Talk:Jeanette (Spanish singer)#Requested move 24 February 2022) and consensus has been that if more than one singer / performer, for example one named "Jeanette", uses that name, then the main title header form "Jeanette (singer)" represents incomplete disambiguation.

Ultimately, there is no need to micromanage the process to such an extent as to limit the "(singer)" qualifier solely to those whose stage name does not represent their actual given name, such as in the case of Andrea (Bulgarian singer) who would thus be the only "Andrea" who has Wikipedia permission to be listed under a mononymous main title header. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:47, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Although the artist is billed with just their first name for their participation at Eurovision, disambiguation is sufficiently achieved through the use of their surname, and I don't think they are sufficiently well known outside of the "Eurovision bubble" for WP:STAGENAME to apply. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 12:23, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. Including the last name is more helpful in this scenario. To me, WP:STAGENAME comes into play when the stage name is very different than the artist's real name, which is not the case here. Grk1011 (talk) 17:58, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom and WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:52, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
• Leaning Support. It seems there is a strong tendency for RS to refer to her by the mononym "Andrea". For example, Google News finds about 20 English results from the last month for "Andrea Eurovision Macedonia" (no quotation marks). Adding "Koevska" to that query reduces the results down to 6. i.e. of recent sources mentioning her, only around 1 in 3 use her last name. Colin M (talk) 20:28, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
• Support She entered the national selection under the name "Andrea", it's the only name used by the Macedonian Radio Television during the process, and it seems like the English-language media have adopted it. You can see a screenshot of the scoreboard with the final results in this article.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:40, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.