Talk:Antoni Giełgud

Requested move 27 December 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Piotrus summed it up perfectly, there is nothing more to add. Colonestarrice (talk) 05:17, 12 January 2023 (UTC) Colonestarrice (talk) 05:17, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

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Antanas Gelgaudas → Antoni Giełgud – Similar situation to Talk:Romuald Giedroyć#Requested move 5 April 2022, Polish-Lithuanian figure of November Uprising, from the Polish-speaking family. Antoni Giełgud is the name used by contemporaries. Marcelus (talk) 21:00, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Oppose - Antanas Gelgaudas was born in Lithuania, his family was a part of the Lithuanian nobility, he commanded the 21st Lithuanian Regiment that was formed in 1812 during the French invasion of Russia, as well as being made the chief commander of the Lithuanian rebels in 1831. Clearly, Gelgaudas was more related to Lithuania than to Poland. Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:31, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

21st Regiment was formed in Białystok and was part of the army of Duchy of Warsaw, he was later officer and general in the Polish Army of Congress Poland, and November Uprising. He signed his letters as "Giełgud", as one can see here, when he entred Lithuania during the November Uprising he issued manifesto calling up "Poles of Lithuanian and Samogitian provinces" to arms, as one can see here. There is no justification for "Antanas Gelgudas" form Marcelus (talk) 12:53, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Correct - in this document he singed his name as Giełgud. GizzyCatBella🍁 12:59, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Is he another case of the Polonized Lithuanian? If yes, just use both names next to each other. Giełgud or Gelgaudas was a Polish-Lithunian ... (as far as the move, I’m not sure yet) - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:05, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

What his grave say? - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:06, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

the grave says Antons Gielguds completely different - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:16, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

We don’t know if the above is an original inscription. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:18, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

RS refer to the family as ...? Gielgut - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:22, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Again Gelgud (notice “l” not “ł”) - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:25, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Gielgut - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:26, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

This one uses both Gielgud Antoni (Antanas Gelgaudas) - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

So here you are...I ignored what Polish and Lithuanian sources say in the above searches. - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:32, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Lithuanian Millenium uses form "Antoni Giełgud": The military campaign in Lithuania also stretched to the regiments of the regular army that came from Poland and was led by Antoni Giełgud; most sources uses from Giełgud, we should ignore the difference that comes from the lack of Polish diacritics. Marcelus (talk) 13:38, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

we should ignore the difference that comes from the lack of Polish diacritics No, that's not how things are done on Wikipedia. We can't ignore what we might not like. Cukrakalnis (talk) 13:56, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis why the grave say - Antons Gielguds? Is that a Lithuanian shorten version? - GizzyCatBella🍁 13:44, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

That's a very interesting find @GizzyCatBella - it might even be an inscription in Samogitian! The full translation of Antons Gielguds isz Lietuwôs waldovû Giminês Lenkû waisko wadowas miręs 13 Lépos 1831. is "Antons Gielguds, from the family of Lithuania's rulers, leader of the Polish army, dead on 13 April 1831." Cukrakalnis (talk) 13:54, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis @GizzyCatBella according to this article the inscription was erected much later by his relatives from England (my guess is descendants Adam Giełgud). And as you can see there is actually bilingual, the inscription in Polish says: Adam Giełgud. Sacrified himself for the Homeland. Died at the hand of madman Marcelus (talk) 14:01, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

This source [1] says: "Gelgaudas was buried here [where he was shot], and a stone with an inscription about Gelgaudas in Russian, Polish and Lithuanian was placed on the grave. 3 or 5 years after the uprising, the tsar granted the request of the Gelgaudas family to transfer the remains of Gelgaudas to the Kisiniai cemetery, located 8 km from the border on the side of Lithuania Minor (Klaipėda county, Dovilų district). The grave was abandoned and only when the 100th anniversary of Gelgaudas' death (about 1928-1929) was approaching, Gelgaudas' descendants (Gielgud) living in England sent money and asked the village elder to tidy it up. A high cross decorated with ornaments was built, the grave was surrounded by a chain, the Chicagoan Vilius Podžius built cement columns." That said, that cross used the original Lithuanian inscription because the Lithuanian language on that grave is definitely from the 1830s instead of 1930s.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 14:15, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I’m in favour of using both names for such people - in Polish and in Lithuanian (any order is fine). The issue needs to be solved one day, or this conflict will never end. We have 1000’s such historical figures from the Commonwealth. Maybe we need Arbitration, no-one seems to be interested in the matter at the lower level, you know.. - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:50, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I might write to them - GizzyCatBella🍁 14:51, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I think we have established process of dealing with it case by case. I don't see any issue with that. Although it would be nice to have more opinions Marcelus (talk) 15:41, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Just like you, @GizzyCatBella, I would be open to using both Polish and Lithuanian names for individuals like Antanas Gelgaudas - basically, those born within the territories of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania from 1569 to late 19th century, but who do not seem to have been connected to the promotion of the Lithuanian language and culture (publication of books in that language, etc.). This would seem like the most reasonable solution, because, in a hypothetical case, a person very concerned with Polish culture, etc. would obviously have a Polish-language name, without a doubt. It would be an injustice to do so otherwise. I am very sceptical of Marcelus saying to deal with it in a case-by-case way, because these discussions, which far too often have rehashed arguments which differ only in appearance, not essence, have eaten up way too much time on the part of us three. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:07, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

We still would have to decide which name to use in the body of the article, so the issue of the "main name" would remain. And it's not like the second name isn't mentioned right now, it is placed in parentheses (lang-lt or lang-pl etc.) There are also cases when a given character actually used two forms simultaneously, or it is difficult to distinguish one of them, then a different notation is used (e.g. Karolina Proniewska). As I said every case is different Marcelus (talk) 22:49, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Giełgud was shot near Gargždai already after crossing the Prussian border. He was accompanied by his brother Jan, who never returned to Poland or Lithuania but sailed from Prussia to England. Thus, Antoni Giełgud was buried on Prussian soil, so I doubt that there was an inscription in Russian (perhaps in German?) on his grave. According to this article, the cross was put up after WWI, most of the crosses in the cemetery look similar, so they were probably put up at the same time. Marcelus (talk) 15:11, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

This is the history of Gelgaudas' grave based on what the sources say:

1831-1834/1836: A stone with a tri-lingual inscription (LT, PL and RU) very close to the Prussian-Russian border, but still on the Russian side. It must have been the Russian side, because the family had to ask the Tsar's permission to bury him in the closest cemetery.

Late 1830s: Gelgaudas is buried on the Prussian side and his grave remains there, mostly abandoned. Presumably, it had a cross.

A long time passes by and the grave is abandoned.

1928-1929: The cross is refurbished.

Saying that the cross was put up after WWI matches up with what was said about the 1928/29 request by his family in England to tidy it up. The most logical solution is that instead of being a totally new cross made in the late 1920s, the bilingual cross was simply a remade cross from the early 19th century, which was cleaned up. The language of the cross is 100% not 20th-century Lithuanian. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:22, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

• Support. This was before the late 19th century Lithuanian National Revival. It's unlikely he used Lithuanian language much. Also my BEFORE suggests the Polish version of his name is used more often, including when controlling for English-language sources (I used '"Antanas Gelgaudas" uprising' and '"Antanas Gelgaudas" resistance' vs Polish names in GScholar, all results I got are 2:1 or 3:1 in favour of the Polish spelling). Lastly, this article was stable under the Polish name for a decade or so until it was moved, without a discussion, to the Lithuanian name in 2020. So really, this is just a technical revert, and we should be hearing the arguments for why this should be renamed to Lithuanian one instead. Sigh. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:27, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nomination and per "Support" arguments raised above by Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus. This would basically represent a restoration of a unilaterally-moved stable main title header. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:07, 29 December 2022 (UTC)

  This IP move it in 2017 - GizzyCatBella🍁 01:08, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

  Not move, just changed Polish to Lithuanian names, and nobody caught that vandalism :( Then 3 years later, SL aka LS moved the article for consistency. Obviously if the anon asked on talk, we would have this very discussion there and no consensus to rename/move. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:01, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.