Talk:Anti-Armenian sentiment

BLP:Misir Gasimly

@Dallavid,

1. You showed outstanding professionalism while challenging the sources at the Massacres of Azerbaijanis in Armenia (1917–1921) talk, yet I am surprised that you can't figure out why sources like https://www.turan.az are questionable, especially when it is a case about extraordinary BLP claim.

2. None of the sources support the claim that crime happened because Misir discovered that Spanish citizen is half Armenian. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 16:59, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

I removed that source and replaced it with another. And BLP doesn't protect people that have been convicted of a crime. What's so "extraordinary" about it? --Dallavid (talk) 21:19, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Please read the WP:BLP policy, and stop restoring potential BLP issue to the article until you reach consensus for that. What's so "extraordinary" about it?- partisan source like www.news.am is not reliable for the extraordinary BLP claims especially in the AA2 editing area.

The sentence, which you keep restoring to the article, claims that Misir and his friend beat, and robbed a Spanish citizen because they discovered that his mother was Armenian at a party. Neither the Ukrainian court, nor any of the provided sources support that claim. Moreover, non of the sources state that this case has relation to the anti-Armenian sentiment. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 15:46, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

You make a very good point @Abrvagl @Dallavid; it's very important to have excellent sources when making negative statements about a living person or entity.

I think we can use the following sources though, one of which (A) is official archived court documents and (B) corroborated by the other sources already included as well as this source: "“An Armenian insulted me”" and "I found out that his father was Arab and his mother Armenian."

The court documents precisely align with what the Azeri, Armenian, and Russian sources (as well as with the statements from the facebook group of the Azeri embassy in Ukraine_ say (the ones you said were unreliable): i.e., that the sentence happened on 6 December, 2022 in a Kiev court:

Archived court records:

1. shorturl.at/ilvAR
2. shorturl.at/gmZ58
3. The original URLS archived are on youcontrol.com.ua see case numbers 761/31532/21 and 761/31532/21 which map to verdict numbers 107708929 and 107735753. The court documents are from Obukhivskyi Raion Court of Kyiv Oblast — Preceding unsigned comment added by Humanatbest (talk • contribs) 11:13, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Important: the names of the accused have been redacted but the courts have left one last name intact:

1. "Frightened for himself, the witness left the territory of Ukraine on 11.06.2021. Gasimli was dressed in a white suit, PERSON_20 in a dark suit and a white shirt"
2. Протягом судового розгляду, обвинувачені пояснювали наявність даного кримінального провадження відносно них, помстою ОСОБА_23 щодо його участі у війні в Нагорному Карабасі та його національністю, тобто кримінальне провадження носило замовний характер.
3. During the trial, the defendants explained the existence of this criminal proceeding against them as revenge of PERSON_23 for his participation in the war in Nagorno-Karabakh and his nationality, i.e. the criminal proceedings were of a motivated nature.
4. Всі ці дії були направлені, щоб помститись обвинуваченому ОСОБА_23 за його участь у війні в Нагорному Карабасі. All these actions were aimed at revenge on the accused PERSON_23 for his participation in the war in Nagorno-Karabakh.
5. He believes that the victim has spoken because of his nationality and participation in the war in Nagorno-Karabakh,
6. Evaluating these testimonies, the court draws attention to the fact that no evidence of such allegations of the accused during the trial has been established, the victim is a citizen of another state, has nothing to do with the war in Nagorno-Karabakh, has not expressed any national statements and opinions, does not have close acquaintances, relatives, friends from among persons of Armenian or Azerbaijani nationality. For the first time, the victim was on the territory of Ukraine, had nothing to do with any state bodies or other organizations, and therefore the court has no reason to believe that the victim spoke to the accused for some reason and had an interest in illegally bringing them to criminal liability.
7. When the witness approached, the person spoke to three people who were talking to each other in Armenian. The witness asked him about the accused, and the person began to insult him, threaten him and expel him from the territory of the police department. Frightened for himself, the witness left the territory of Ukraine on 11.06.2021.

This source reports that Gasimili says that "an Armenian insulted me" and "I found out that his father was Arab and his mother Armenian"

I suggest we keep this:

"In 2022, a Ukranian court convicted an Azerbaijani veteran of kidnapping and robbing a Spanish national of Armenian heritage in Kyiv. The Azerbaijani accused the victim of attempting to seek "revenge" for his participation in the Second Nagorno-Karbakh War, a view that the court regarded implausible."

We will have to remove the part about his friend (Subkhan Guliyev) until we have a better source or someone reads the court procedures more closely.

thoughts? @Abrvagl @Dallavid Humanatbest (talk) 11:10, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

also note, if we do not include his name there is no potential for libel or contentions with BLP, it remains simply anonymous but still relevant to the article. That's another option that we have (I would prefer to keep the name but I want to hear your opinions!) Humanatbest (talk) 11:18, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Humanabest. The quotes you provided are about the claims of Gasimli, that he was victim of Armenian lobby and etc: The Azerbaijani accused the victim of attempting to seek "revenge" for his participation in the Second Nagorno-Karbakh War, a view that the court regarded implausible."

As such, there is no evidence to support the claim that Gasimli committed a crime because the victim was revealed to be 50% ethnic Armenian. As well as nothing connects that case to anti-Armenian sentiment, and sources are still low quality. At that point, I don't see possibility that OR and BLP information could be included in the article. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 11:30, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

1. This isn't OR [if he was convicted, he was convicted] nor is there any possibility for WP:LBL if we keep names out.
2. "there is no evidence to support the claim that Gasimili commited a crime because the victim ... was 50% Armenian." True, but if you look at what I wrote, I never said that. The definition of Armenophobia in this article is as follows: "a diverse spectrum of negative feelings, dislikes, fears, aversion, racism, derision and/or prejudice towards Armenians, Armenia, and Armenian culture." The very fact that the defendent blamed his situation on the victim being Armenian (to which the court ruled implausible), is consistent with this definition of Armenophobia. If you treat someone differently because he/she belongs to a certain ethnic/cultural/racial group then by definition that is prejudice which is what this article is about.

However, I read more into Wikipedia policy.; we are advised to avoid use primary sources unless they are supported by reliable secondary sources: So the question is not about BLP but whether or not there are reliable sources. I'm inclined to believe that 24saat.org is a reliable news site given that it is actually blocked in Azerbaijan for political reasons (source). It is not a mouthpiece for the Azeri government and the 24saat article that mentions Gasimli does not slander him; in fact, it defends him and says that he has been detained which is consistent with other (less reliable sources) and the court proceedings. Humanatbest (talk) 17:06, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay, let's get this straight. I never argued that information about a conviction is OR; rather, I said that information about a crime being committed because Gasimli revealed the Spanish citizen's Armenian origin is OR. Sources does not support the claim that crime had any relations to the ethnicity.We don't even know whether a Spanish citizen is of Armenian descent.

All allegations concerning ethnicity were made by Misir himself, and the last source you brought just cited Misir's allegations, and the statements you provided above demonstrate that the allegations were not confirmed: Evaluating these testimonies, the court draws attention to the fact that no evidence of such allegations of the accused during the trial has been established, the victim is a citizen of another state, has nothing to do with the war in Nagorno-Karabakh, has not expressed any national statements and opinions, does not have close acquaintances, relatives, friends from among persons of Armenian or Azerbaijani nationality. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 18:37, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I think there is a misunderstanding here.

The accused (A) is an Azeri war veteran and was convicted of a crime against (B) an ethnically Armenian person

You are right that there is no evidence that the crime was committed due to ethnicity: I am not contesting that (we agree on this!)

The crime was not prejudicial/racist (we do not have evidence that race/ethnicity was a motivating factor: I agree with you!).

However, blaming the victim for being brought to trial was prejudicial/Anti-armenian (the court dismissed A's theory that B only brought the case to court because he was Armenian).

The part you highlighted in green shows this. In short, the court said to the convicted Azeri veteran "Your theory that the victim was actually targeting you because he is Armenian and you are Azeri makes no sense; because the victim actually is not nationalistic, has nothing to do with the NKR war, and has basically no connections to Armenia or Azerbaijan: that is, you are being prejudicial/racist"

Is that clearer?

@Abrvagl Humanatbest (talk) 20:40, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

To make this even clearer, focus on this statement. "In 2022, a Ukranian court convicted Bob of kidnapping Mark. Bob then claimed that Mark made up the story because Mark is Armenian. The court dismissed this prejudicial idea as implausible, and did not change their conviction ruling." Humanatbest (talk) 20:48, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

"In 2022, a Ukranian court convicted an Azerbaijani veteran of kidnapping and robbing a Spanish national of Armenian heritage in Kyiv. The Azerbaijani accused the victim of attempting to seek "revenge" for his participation in the Second Nagorno-Karbakh War, a view that the court regarded implausible." - This is not true. Court actually defined that Spanish citizen has nothing to do with the war in Nagorno-Karabakh, has not expressed any national statements and opinions, does not have close acquaintances, relatives, friends from among persons of Armenian or Azerbaijani nationality.

However, blaming the victim for being brought to trial was prejudicial/Anti-armenian (the court dismissed A's theory that B only brought the case to court because he was Armenian). - Yes, and we both agree on that. Misir submitted several allegations in attempt to suggest that the evidence against him was fabricated, but they were rejected by the Ukrainian court.

So there is no sources stating that Spanish citizen was of Armenian heritage, and Ukrainian court in fact rejected that theory. There was no case of anti-Armenian sentiment, and no source describes it as such.

So, since we both agreed on everything, I assume there's nothing more to discuss, because such information is irrelevant to this article. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 18:48, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

It is irrelevant whether the victim was Armenian or not. If I treat you badly because I think you are Armenian, but you are actually Irish, it is still prejudice. Prejudice is based on perceived group membership.

A famous example of this is when US Presidential candidate McCain corrected a woman said she "didn't trust Obama" because "he's an Arab" CNN Regardless, of whether or not Obama is an Arab (he isn't), this woman revealed that she was prejudiced against Arab people.

-Anyway, the court documents themselves do indicate that the victim spoke Armenian, which probably contributed to this perception that he was Armenian. Also, why would the convicted person accuse the victim of trying to seek "revenge" if he didn't think the victim was Armenian?

When he got there, police showed him the person who was presented as an investigator by the name of PERSON_41 , and said that he could explain something to the witness. When the witness approached, the person spoke to three people who were talking to each other in Armenian. The witness asked him about the accused, and the person began to insult him, threaten him and expel him from the territory of the police department. Frightened for himself, the witness left the territory of Ukraine on 11.06.2021

This source (that I mentioned beforehand) also reports that Gamili was aware that the Spanish citizen's mother was Armenian. If you are not happy with this source, please let me know. We could also just remove the part about him being of Armenian heritage and instead say the following:

"In 2022, a Ukranian court convicted an Azerbaijani veteran of kidnapping and robbing a Spanish national in Kyiv. The Azerbaijani citizen perceived the victim as Armenian and accused the latter of attempting to seek "revenge" for his participation in the Second Nagorno-Karbakh War, a view that the court regarded implausible."

@Abrvagl Humanatbest (talk) 20:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

This source (that I mentioned beforehand) also reports - it does not, it just quotes Gasimli.

the court documents themselves do indicate that the victim spoke Armenian - where it does? I checked both verdict numbers 107708929 and 107735753, they dont.

The court decision is that Gasimli is guilty as per following points {tq|ОСОБА_8 визнати винуватим у вчиненні злочинів, передбачених ч.3 ст.146, ч.4 ст.187, ч.1 ст.263 КК України, та призначити йому покарання"}}, not of which related with to the hate crime conducted on the ethnicity/nationality base.

Moreover, all the information about the alleged Armenian origin of the Spanish citizen came only from Gasimly, who thus tried to prove that the alleged trial and investigation were not carried out correctly and he was slandered. Those allegations were proven to be not true. So we do not even know if Spanish citizen has Armenian descent or not.

Again, the statement you suggested is OR, and even if you fix it by removing the claim about Spanish citizen's alleged Armenian decent - this is not a case of Anti-Armenian sentiment. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 21:07, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

@Abrvagl Thanks for your reply. Since we are talking about multiple things simultaneously, I want to limit the discussion to one thing at a time.

First, do you agree that there are one or more reliable sources that indicate that the convicted Azeri vet perceived that the victim was of Armenian nationality/ethnicity/origin? Humanatbest (talk) 13:09, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, Humanatbest, but I'm not inclined to basically repeat everything I've previously stated. You wish to add to the article that "court convicted an Azerbaijani veteran of kidnapping and robbing a Spanish national of Armenian heritage in Kyiv" but I have demonstrated that the court does not state this, and that all Armenian heritage allegations, which were proven to be false, arose from Misir himself most likely in an attempt to manipulate the public and the court.

Nevertheless:

1. WE DO NOT KNOW that the victim is of Armenian ancestry, and while some sources claim he is a Spanish citizen, others claim he is a British citizen. As a result, we cannot even confirm the nationality of the victim.

2. The court record "107735753" states that a witness observed the investigator OSOBA 41 speaking in Armenian, and sources (citing attorney of Gasimli) state that it was rather a case of anti-Azerbaijani sentiments intended to unfairly blame Misirli. How this is related to anti-Armenian sentiment?

3. The third-party editor who responded on the BLPN I raised concurred that sources are questionable and its information is UNDUE.

So I don't see the sense in continuing to discuss this further. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 18:58, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

You are conveniently ignoring crucial parts of our discussion above. After our discussion above, (when I first introduced the court documents), I suggested we keep the following:

"In 2022, a Ukranian court convicted an Azerbaijani veteran of kidnapping and robbing a Spanish national. Perceiving the victim as Armenian, the Azerbaijani accused the victim of attempting to seek "revenge" for his participation in the Second Nagorno-Karbakh War, a view that the court regarded implausible."

Since you believe that

"Misir's Armenian heritage allegations" were "an attempt to manipulate the public and the court," I am struggling to understand how you cannot consider this anti-Armenian prejudice? Alleging that the victim's Armenian heritage (false or not) played a role in your sentencing is exactly prejudice.

1. It is irrelevant whether or not the victim is Armenian or not. Prejudice requires perceived membership rather than actual membership. As long as the accused thought the victim believed the victim was Armenian and blamed his sentencing on that, then it is a case of Anti-Armenianism. The very source you just quoted says this: The notes [sent by the Azerbaijani Embassy] emphasize that one of the criminals is a veteran of the Karabakh war, that the victim is half Armenian. This is also supported by 24saat.org [source]

1. The witness was a British citizen, not the victim. This is clear in the court documents. The source that claims he was British was poorly written. This is why I suggest using 24saat.org [source]
2. The third-party editor did not review 24saat.org and the court documents. The third-party editors reviewed the contributions and reversions by @Dallavid. I agree with the decision of the third-party editors but you only brought to them old un-reliable sources. Remember, WP:NOTFINISHED

I don't believe you are engaging in good faith anymore, since you ignore direct questions and did not update the third-party BLOP board with the new sources. I will consider raising this in BLOP again with our updated discussion (and sources) once I figure out how the process works and have some time. Unless you have a change of spirit and choose to engage in this discussion. Humanatbest (talk) 10:03, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

You are conveniently ignoring crucial parts of our discussion above. - I answered each of your questions, and I am not ignored any parts of the discussion. Rather I am not interested in answering the same questions multiple times. However, if you have new questions or points, I am happy to discuss/review them with you.

I agree with the decision of the third-party editors but you only brought to them old un-reliable sources. Remember, WP:NOTFINISHED - The BLOP had links to the talk-page discussions, to the article, and to the edit. There were no references to sources in BLOP itself. Also, I have no clue why you are pointing to WP:NOTFINISHED, which is an essay irrelevant to our conversation.

This is why I suggest using 24saat.org - without discussing anything about whether 24saat.org even proves your point or not, how can you believe that 24saat.org is reliable? Have you read the 24saat article? If yes, did you not see how poorly it too was written? Here are just few of the examples: To fight in wartime To Azerbaijan I came and went to the volunteer front., Once, my friend came from Azerbaijan., Complaint The person who did it returned to Spain 2-3 hours after I was taken to the unit., According to our information, in the process, a Spanish citizen of Arab originhand person participates as a complainant. A source like this can not be used to make such a strong claim about a living person. A b r v a g l ^(PingMe) 20:08, 30 January 2023 (UTC)