Talk:Anohni

Discussion

This is just copy-paste from the Antony and the Johnsons page, or the other way round. Either way, it is redundant.

• I've added a merge request, and if there's no objections then I'll make this page a redirect to Antony and the Johnsons. Durnar 16:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Perhads instead of merging the articles it would be more appropriate to request a reworking of this page by someone with expertise on the artist. I admit that the page is currently inadequate, and if there is truly nothing to add then a merge between the two articles would be appropriate. Kikkoman 07:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe these two articles should be merged. This is obviously a cut and paste job, but they need two different articles. The band and the person are two different things. I strongly oppose any merge.    Codu    talk    contribs    email   13:21, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Points in article

"He was looking to release his new untitled album on 31st September, however, due to unforseen circumstances, this is not possible." Um....and it's not possible.....why???? If you don't have sources, or the whole story, why would you put it in an article?

Also, there are two statements in there saying "It is rumoured......." Well, until rumor becomes FACT, it should NOT be in this encyclopedia article.

Thanks. NickBurns 13:12, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not possible because September only has 30 days. 207.237.228.143 (talk) 09:45, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Gay/Transgender

This article says that he is openly gay, but the page for his band "Antony and the Johnsons" says that he is transgender. Gay and transgender are obviously not the same, does anyone know which one is right? Arcticwoman 20:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a super strong/clear source, but in one of Bjork's Volta Podcasts Antony refers to himself as a transgender person Rugadh 22:00, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah i was reading this article and was quite confused, esp. as he is in the Gay and Transgender catagories but its not mentioned in the article at all. TSMonk 13:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

They aren't the same, but they aren't mutually exclusive either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.49.251.170 (talk) 11:11, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Antony could easily be both. Judging by lyrics, Antony at one point identified as a boy and later as a woman. --Ephilei (talk) 20:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

I've read interviews and articles where he refuses to discuss his sexuality at all so it's unknown; but he is out as being Transgender. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.185.240.13 (talk) 23:47, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

He was being discussed on National Public Radio and was referred to as transgender. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.125.140.113 (talk) 00:06, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

I've found numerous sources that he's transgender (in the recent NYTimes article http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/19/arts/music/19anto.html?_r=1&hp , Antony is referred to as "he"), but there is no indication if he is a MtF or a FtM. 207.237.228.143 (talk) 09:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

From CBC News: Though Hegarty was raised Catholic, his brand of spirituality has little to do with organized religion; his epiphanies are more about the sublime, about transcendental beauty. He says it’s connected to his experience of being transgendered. Though Hegarty occupies the male body he was born with, he’s open about his complex gender identity, which he’s expressed in songs like My Lady Story and the heartbreaking For Today I Am a Boy. He doesn’t yearn to be female per se, but feels comfortable existing in a fluid space between masculinity and femininity. For Hegarty, transgenderism is a “spiritual condition.” —Wasabe3543 00:07, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

There are so many things wrong with that I could burst. Could you imagine me saying "I have a complex racial identity. I was born 100% Caucasian, but I feel comfortable existing in a fluid space between Caucasian and Black and Asian. I don't yearn to be Black or Asian, but to me, race is more about a 'spiritual condition'" ? I would be eaten alive as far as it's inclusion here on Wikipedia. How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four: just because you call the tail a leg doesn't make it one. -Abraham Lincoln 207.237.33.83 (talk) 04:35, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, race isn't the same thing as gender identity. Wikipedia says that gender is a state of mind and race isn't because that's what the sources and prevailing wisdom says. -- AvatarMN (talk) 00:31, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, your example of race isn't so unusual. A great many people feel cultural ties to different ethnicities or "races" regardless of their own ethnic backgrounds. In fact I dare say race is more of a purely cultural construct than gender/"sex" is. The difference between the two, of course, is that gender fluidity or related concepts are things that society has specific terms and an understanding of - even if that understanding is one of dismissal. When it comes to the crossing or transgressing of cultural or "racial" lines things are much less codified. That practice is simply part of living in a multicultural society, with no special assumption that it requires the creation of a unique category of person. --129.11.12.201 (talk) 15:42, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

The new Advocate (April 2009, issue #1025) has an interview with Hegarty, and it says he identifies as transgender. -- AvatarMN (talk) 00:34, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure about this?

Is anyone else confused by this line? "Contrary to popular reports, Antony does in fact not have a penis."

"Popular reports" say that Antony is transgendered. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a penis and I have never heard anything saying that this was true. Please site some sources. Unless you looked under his skirt, how are you proving that? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.70.254.114 (talk) 00:27, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

• The line is obvious vandalism, and has now been removed. - Gobeirne 01:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Featured on "Release the Stars"?

"He is also singing two songs on Rufus Wainwright's Album "Release the Stars" (2007)." I can't find this mentioned in the reference. Furthermore, I've listened to Release the Stars, and Rufus Wainwright certainly sings the lead vocals on all the songs. So maybe Antony does some backing vocals. But on which songs, and according to which source? Can somebody clarify the sentence? Otherwise it should be deleted. Nelly4 00:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Nelly4

video : herself saying she's 'transgender'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kY8HHYAphQ0

Genderqueer

"Transgendered" can mean any number of things. For Antony it means that he doesn't identify as either male or female. There are people whose identities don't fall within the gender binary and feel no need to conform to one gender. This is also known as genderqueer. It has very little to do with genitalia. Jetblack500 (talk) 00:54, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Grammar problems

Although it is apparent that the best of intentions were held when this article was written, the page is filled with grammatical nightmares springing from the non-use of a gendered pronoun. I understand why editors have opted to use the "singular they" instead of "he" or "she," however this leaves us with phrases like "Antony moved with their family" and "Antony debuted their visual artworks" which are simply too grammatically confusing to be usable. In some cases it appears that the term "they"/"their" is used to refer to Antony alone and in other cases it appears to refer to Antony and others collectively. The collective use is fine as this is the traditional meaning of the word, however we need to come up with a better way to refer to Antony than the "singular they."

The options as I see them are these:
1)Use the "generic/universal he" throughout
2)Use either "he" or "she" depending on how Antony self-identifies (or if Antony does not self identify with either pronoun then chose another option)
3)Use "Antony" every time instead of a pronoun. Although this might get overly repetitive
4)Avoid the whole issue by rewording everything so avoid the term "he," "she," or "they"
I am not familiar with the topic of this article so I'd need the input of other editors before making any changes myself. I hope an easy consensus can be reached. -Thibbs (talk) 23:56, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Well it's been a couple of days now with no response so I'm not sure if anyone is watching this page or not. I've decided to go with option #4 since I don't know whether Antony identifies as "he" or "she," and since the word "they" in this situation is completely unclear and thus inappropriate. Apparently it is also considered "downright offensive" by some. Anyway I'd be happy to see a change of language of the article to use of whichever pronoun Antony uses in self-reference but as I said, I am not very familiar with Antony's preferences and so I think it's safest at this point to avoid the issue entirely. -Thibbs (talk) 13:41, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

One final thought: If sources can be found to indicate that Antony self-identifies as "they" then I suppose we could go back to using "they" everywhere, but this would have to be sourced and I think it would be necessary to include a sentence or two in the lede along the lines of "Antony identifies as transgender(citation1)(citation2) and uses the singular they as a pronoun to refer to themself."(citation3) -Thibbs (talk) 13:45, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I notice that three of the four refs cited in the discussion of his gender identification call him "he" and none call him "she". These are [1], [2], and [3], the last of which is a queer publication whose writers and editors almost certainly would have made sure to use pronouns that Antony was okay with. (The fourth ref is a transcript of an interview in which Antony is only ever called "you".) I think we're safe following their lead. The current state of the article, which avoids pronouns altogether and just keeps repeating the name Antony, is very difficult to read. Pais (talk) 14:42, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

OK, that's fine. If you'd like to reword it then the easiest might be to simply revert my last edit and then change "they"s to "he"s. I did make a few spelling and typographical changes as well, however, so those should be retained as well. Thanks for reviewing my work. -Thibbs (talk) 14:56, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Instead of reverting, I just changed some of the "Antony"s back to "he"s. Pais (talk) 15:17, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Pais, I think you made it much more readable indeed. And following the lead of a queer publication was the way to go, they usually make very sure they do the right thing. --Lgriot (talk) 17:04, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't see why "they" is necessarily unclear... including an obviously singular and gendered pronoun still leaves ambiguity as to which of the 3 billion+ members of that gender is being referred to; in either case context can disambiguate.

According to traditional English usage, pronouns refer to an antecedent noun. If you say "Gregory performed at Leeds and then he performed at Manchester", the "he" refers to Gregory according to the standard rules of grammar. There won't be any confusion for a native English-speaker as to whom among the 3 billion+ members of that gender the pronoun refers. On the other hand, "they" is a plural pronoun. According to traditional English usage, the plurality and gender of a pronoun must match that of the antecedent noun to which it refers. This allows us to construct an unambiguous sentence like "Leopold and Ruth were on their way to the union meeting when he asked her if they were socialists." In modern times, the words "they", "them", "their", etc. have been repurposed to serve as gender neutral pronouns referring either to a single abstract person (as a less cumbersome alternative to "he or she", "him or her", "his or her", etc.) or a single specific person of unknown/ambiguous gender. Although some ambiguity can be cleared away by carefully setting the context so that the reader is forced to repeatedly assume that "in this case the plural pronoun must be referring to a single person," all of the ambiguity can be cleared away by making an effort to avoid constructions that require pronouns. I think the way that we have solved things as a community above is perfectly understandable and reasonable. -Thibbs (talk) 17:31, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

There are other pronoun alternatives. Some genderqueer people prefer "ze" (instead of "he" or "she") and "hir" (instead of "his" or "her"). There's also "s/he" I once interviewed Leslie Feinberg and hir preference was to "ze" and "hir" - however, they haven't gained a lot of usage outside of the genderqueer/transgender communities.Jtyroler (talk) 12:24, 29 May 2012 (UTC)

Adding current events to artist's page

Why can't I add current events to artists page when previous current events have been allowed? Artists career does not stop in 2009, we should be allowed to continually update the current events portion. Please explain why the most recent current events are not allowed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lastinggold (talk • contribs) 14:40, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Section needed on gender identity

Currently, this article is in Category:Transgender and transsexual musicians, and various LGBT-related categories. That's not a BLP problem, as I understand his transgender status is not contentious and well-supported by reliable sources, but it's odd that there's no mention of it in the actual text of the article. Someone should probably add a section on his gender identity. Here's one possible source, in which he identifies as transgender but has no wish to define himself beyond that:[4] Robofish (talk) 17:20, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Should we move to Anohni?

Seeing as she changed her name and all [all what?], shouldn't we move this page to Anohni, and have "Antony Hegarty" as a redirect? - ChimpyJoe (talk) 19:23, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I think it should, per MOS:IDENTITY. © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 04:34, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Would it not make more sense to change her page's title to "Anohni," since that's her name? How does one change this?

144.62.220.200 (talk) 15:48, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

 Done © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 17:12, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Wait, is it clear that she's actually changed her name? It seems like she's just releasing the new album under a different name. I don't think she's legally changed her name or dropped her last name. GentleCollapse16 (talk) 01:43, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Legal name changes are not necessary for changing a person's name on wikipedia (for example Cher is not her legal name either.) Wiki policy states that preference is given to self designation as reported in most recent verifiable sources and all recent sources go by the name Anohni. She also mentions in interviews that Anohni is a name she has been using in her personal life for some time. Rab V (talk) 17:54, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Collaboration with CocoRosie

Their collaboration is mentionned on this page, but not listed here. Should probably be under "Other recordings" ? Solveig (talk) 04:40, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Deadnaming

ANOHNI is being deadnamed in this article. All instances of deadnaming should be removed as they comprise violence towards the person being discussed and violate the terms of an increasing number of social media platforms. Saying that she was formerly the lead singer of Antony and the Johnsons should be enough to indicate a throughline of her career for those who require it. 72.89.254.193 (talk) 20:53, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

No, see WP:DEADNAME. "Antony Hegarty" was an established name in popular music for over a decade. Paulie302 (talk) 21:22, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

ORGANIZATION OF ARTIST'S NAME, MUSIC CATEGORIES, PROFESSIONS

Anohni's full legal name is not listed in this article. We dont want to seem more motivated to list her birth name than her current actual name, not just her stage name. Please explain why you believe that the link we included to ARCA's page doesnt establish precedent that birth names can be listed in sections describing birth, rather than in the title line. It gives the impression that editors are more preoccupied with the artist's gender identity, which I presume isnt the case, than representing her in manner in which all the facts are listed in order of relevance. ie: her current legal name, Anohni Hegarty. check. Birth name, in section about birth. Check.

Also, Anohni's music is described as experimental in several refences we posted. She hasn't released any "chamber pop" in over a decade, and never under the name Anohni. By her 3rd Record The Crying Light in 2008, The NY Times/NPR writer Ann Powers stated that Anohni had evolved from "chamber pop" to more experimental compositional territory of her own. Nico Muhly, the compositional collaborator on the Crying Light, Cut the World and Swanlights, is widely regarded as avant classical, as the link we posted indicates. Daniel Lopatin, the producer for Hopelessness is always described as experimental. That album was classed as experimental by Pitchfork in their own classifications.

The wiki overview seems preoccupieed with older tropes. 20 years ago with I am a Bird Now, the "chamber pop" category originated because at that time Hegarty was actually touring with a small chamber group of three string players, until 2007. However for the next 8 years, between 2008 and 2016 she was performing with symphonies around the world, as described in the body of the article, and "chamber" does not describe that aesthetic. The aesthetic of those arrangements by Muhly was experimental classical; my partner and I found one article describing Muhly's work as avant classical, which we suppose could conform to the category of experimental classical.

Your reference to Wendy Carlos is one of several paradigms indicating the gender identity of an artist currently featured on wiki. Arca is a peer of Anohni,suggesting it might make more sense to align the choices here with those we have made about Arca's page. Even Wendy Carlos' full legal name is first iterated on her page, which is currently not true on Anohni's page. Also, identifying birth names in sections about birth could be perceived as more respectful, which we can all agree is a good thing. Just saying Wendy Carlos without addressing the resolutions determined on Arca's page isnt enough to close the conversation here.

Finally, what is the issue with referencing Anohni as a visual artist and theater director when those aspects of her work are described in detail in the body of the wiki page? We have several articles and reviews attached to this page that describe her work in those arenas. Thanks in advance for your response. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:7000:3801:4900:2197:D1AD:6F64:3A63 (talk • contribs)

Wikipedia lists her birth name prominently because she became famous while known under her birth name. Same as Wendy Carlos, quite unlike Arca (musician). We follow the Carlos example for Anohni.

Regarding her list of occupations, Wikipedia follows WP:SECONDARY sources. Is Anohni described as a theater director in published sources? No. Binksternet (talk) 15:44, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Genres in infobox

Anohni's infobox should have two to four genres listed. Each listed genre should represent multiple sources, and not include outliers. Her musical style should be discussed in prose in the article body, with citations to support the prose. Outlier genres can certainly be included in the prose. Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, the genres in the infobox are a summary of article prose, and thus they don't need supporting cites.

I don't see any reliable sources supporting a genre of Experimental music. Binksternet (talk) 02:29, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Seems like someone is pushing a narrative onto Wikipedia rather than simply summarizing sources. A single-purpose account in NYC using the IP range Special:Contributions/2603:7000:3801:4900:0:0:0:0/64 has repeatedly inserted the experimental music genre at the top of the infobox. See WP:Tendentious editing.

The most recent effort took a quote of Anohni's relayed by Pitchfork and said that Anohni's own words were the official position of the Pitchfork platform, asserting falsely that Pitchfork now calls Anohni experimental. This is getting ridiculous. It's like Anohni's management is remaking her image, and using Wikipedia as a tool. Binksternet (talk) 04:59, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Seconding these concerns. These rotating IPs from NYC (the subject's home base) seem intent on claiming the article, creating WP:TEND and WP:OWN issues along the way. Paulie302 (talk) 08:34, 29 May 2023 (UTC)