Talk:Argos

Argos is a Greek group — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.121.238.42 (talk) 00:06, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 27 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:20, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

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• Argos (disambiguation) → Argos
• Argos → Argos, Peloponnese

– No clear primary topic, although the retailer is named after the city it gets more views (13,967) than the city (13,444)[[1]] and being named after isn't determine, see Boston. Furthermore not all of the entries appear to derive from the city anyway for example the river, the place on Nisyros and the acronym. When I Google Argos all the results are for the retailer though that's probably partly due to my location (England). Images which tends to be far less biased by location (for example a Google search for Halifax returns the bank and West Yorkshire town while images mainly returns the Canadian city) even shows only the retailer, Books mainly returns the city but there are other results such as the dog that gets 3,636 views[[2]]. The city has a population of 22,085 but the retailer has nearly a billion customers per year. So as far as primary topic goes PT#1 clearly isn't satisfied since the retailer gets more views and although its likely the city has more long-term significance other topics also have some to. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:20, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support. The nomination shows that the city is not much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term per WP:PTOPIC. The city has more incoming wikilinks, but most refer to the subtopic of classical Argos rather than the modern city which is the main topic of the article. Argos attracts wikilinks which were meant for Argos (retailer) – I've fixed 79 myself. This shows that many editors don't expect the city to be a PT, so it's a reasonable conclusion that many readers don't either. Certes (talk) 11:40, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

That's because there should be an article on Ancient Argos, or Argos (polis). Currently, the ancient city state (it was an independent small country) is awkwardly inserted into the article of the modern city. T8612 (talk) 12:53, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:36, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Would prefer to see the city and retailer in a "usually refers to" lede per Amazon or Mercury. —Xezbeth (talk) 08:28, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. A classic case of recentism—with the only other plausible target being a retailer largely confined to the UK and Ireland, and hardly known to the rest of the world. This case is not comparable to "Amazon" or "Mercury", since both of these had multiple established meanings of considerable importance for centuries. Your argument would lead to "Amazon (company)" being recognized as primary for "Amazon", which it's not, despite having ten times the daily page views as the river, and presumably far more than the river, basin, rain forest, and the Greek warrior women for whom they're all named combined. In the case of Mercury, there were three possible topics, all of similar long-term significance—the god, the metal, and the planet. The argument that "not all of the entries" on the disambiguation page derive from the ancient city is disingenuous—acronyms of the type referred to are chosen precisely because they form familiar-sounding names, whether or not there's a connection; and there's no evidence that the location on Nisyros wasn't named for the ancient city, since the entirety of the article about it is two short sentences identifying what and where it was—but since your argument is based on page views, the Nisyrian town averages about one view every other day, many of them probably coming solely because people who've never heard of it see the title pop up in the search window, or find it on the disambiguation page. But the bottom line is, there's no justification for "demoting" the city from primary topic status simply because there's a popular retailer named after it in the UK—and that's the only remotely plausible reason as things stand now. P Aculeius (talk) 13:43, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

The city with 22,085 people is hardly known to the rest of the world either. The retailer has an average of more than 100x the daily customers than the population of the city. While I have heard of the city (and watched a video that mentioned it a few days ago) it definitely isn't better known than the retailer. Following the 10 year test its likely that the retailer will still be of a similar interest to readers so I don't see that being a strong reason. I (weakly) opposed to making the company primary for Amazon but here I'm also saying that there is no primary topic. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:30, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

"The city with 22,085 people is hardly known to the rest of the world" is an absurd statement. The city of Argos is one of the oldest in the world; it gave its name to the Argives who fought the Trojan War—the foundational event in Greek history, and all of Classical literature. Every other Argos—certainly all of the notable ones, and probably all of the others, at least in a roundabout way, are named after it. Most of the world is at least vaguely aware that Argos is a city in Greece, even if that's all they know about it. Its current population is hardly relevant to the discussion; countless other places and things—even some people—are named after Jericho, a city smaller than Argos. But the ancient city is still primary for the topic; a hatnote delivers readers to the disambiguation page. Outside of the UK and Ireland, hardly anyone has ever heard of the retailer called "Argos". Will it still be getting tons of hits ten years from now? Maybe, if it's not rebranded or folded into some other operation—and goes the way of Woolworth's or Montgomery Ward. That can't happen to the city of Argos, which would still be historically significant centuries from now, even if the entire population decided to abandon it. P Aculeius (talk) 14:28, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

The retailer is very well known in the UK while the city as you say people may be "vaguely aware" of it but its unlikely to be a household name. If in the next few decades or so the retailer goes into administration and it stops getting a large amount of views we can move the city back to the base name but anyway I don't have a crystal ball to know if that will happen anytime soon, all that we can say is that the retailer (or one the the other topics) for the foreseeable future will be the intended target for at least half of readers tying "Argos" into the search box. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:09, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

There's a dilemma here that's bigger than this RM. Should we show readers the page they were looking for, or guide them to a more worthy and encyclopaedic topic that might better advance their education? Certes (talk) 18:20, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

That's a mischaracterization of this discussion. If the premise is, "the title should be used for the topic that the largest number of people will visit", then the retailer should clearly be the primary topic—and the same would be true for Amazon. That's not what this nomination is about. The premise of this nomination is that "Argos" shouldn't have a primary topic, even though the only other article that could possibly have been considered primary already includes disambiguation in its title, and isn't going to be made primary. It's about "clearing the field" of anything that smacks of being "more important" than the retailer—world heritage be darned. Nothing to do with "educating the great unwashed". P Aculeius (talk) 19:00, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

If there isn't a primary topic then the DAB gets the base name (see WP:NOPRIMARY) I'm not suggesting that the retailer is the primary topic (and would definitely oppose that proposal) since the retailer doesn't get many more than the city and probably fails PT#2, I'm just saying that because of the retailer and the several other topics (some of which don't appear to derive from the city) that none is primary. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:08, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but the thrust of my argument is that the city is and should remain primary, due to long-term (not to mention global) significance, no matter how many hits the retailer gets. A hatnote is sufficient to direct people to the retailer and/or other uses. P Aculeius (talk) 21:23, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

• Support especially in the event of a separate article for classical Argos, as we ought to have, there is definitely no primary topic. (t · c) buidhe 20:50, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
• Support. Massviews shows that whilst the article about the city is the most visited, it does not fulfil the primary topic criterion of being more popular than everything else put together. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 17:23, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-move cleanup

@JHunterJ and others: Where should we divert the links to the ancient city of Argos, Peloponnese? Ancient Argos exists but now leads to the dab, which is not unreasonable as there were several other ancient cities of that name. Sending them straight to Argos, Peloponnese is a wasted opportunity; it seems better to collect them in a redirect with possibilities. Does that sound sensible and, if so, what shall we call that redirect? Certes (talk) 14:35, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

I've been updating the links that previously went to the city to the city, since it's not incorrect. I'm not expert enough to opine on the other options. I'll pause my pursuit. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:53, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Presumably most are for the city but again I don't know enough about the places to say either. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:12, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

I have edited templates {{Ancient Greece topics}}, {{Argos-Mykines div}} and {{Most Ancient European Towns Network}} to reflect the page move. If we agree on a section redirect or a new article appears, let's update them. (Also {{Stato da Mar}} from the Venetian era.) Certes (talk) 19:23, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Redirect Ancient Argos is now on the dab (thanks, Uanfala). I've updated {{Ancient Greece topics}} (but not other templates) and various articles to use it. As for the Argus links, I found one for Argus (Argonaut) and one for Argus Panoptes. The rest are about 70% Ancient Argos, 30% the modern city. Certes (talk) 21:59, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I had missed this thread here: well, there are other Argoses that are ancient, but I thought this one was the clear primary topic. Still, if another, more specific redirect is found, all the better. – Uanfala (talk) 22:10, 4 November 2020 (UTC)