Talk:Cathedral of the Holy Cross, Aghtamar

What is the church built of?

I have in my hand a small fragment of the cladding stone used in the construction of the church. Such fragments are not common, the stone that was used to build the church is not native to the island. I'm not a geologist, but it does not look anything like sandstone - it looks like tuff. However, it is claimed to be "pink sandstone" in one version of this article's content. There was no reference given for this claim. I have changed it to "volcanic tufa", and believe that the problem about what type of stone it is is a small example of a mistake echoing down the generations. On page 11 of "Ahtamar" by Stephan Mnatsakanian, 1986, we read "The hard basalt formation of the island forced king Gagik to import high quality tuff from the nearby shore of the lake", and on page 13 of "Akdamar Church - with renewed face of the History", the 2007 propagandistic booklet produced to accompany the reopening after the restoration, is a section about the replacing of the missing top of the dome (the "cross stand"). The replacement is carved out of two sections of stone and "the original shape of the cross stand was determined and scaled and manufactured of Ahlat stone". "Ahlat stone" is a volcanic tufa (from the eruptions from Nemrut), and elsewhere in the booklet (page 11) we are told that "the materials that had been used at the time of construction were used in the restoration", which would imply that the stone used originally was also volcanic tufa (aka tuff). So far, the sources are in agreement with my assertion - the stone is volcanic tufa. However, in Gwyn Williams's 1972 book "Eastern Turkey, a Guide and History" it is claimed to be "chocolate-coloured sandstone". This book is a tawdry and (when dealing with the region's history) unpleasant work by an individual with little insight or desire to be insightful. I doubt if he could distinguish chalk from cheese. He probably got the sandstone information after the event, for in "Aghtamar, church of the Holy Cross" by Sirapie Der Nersessian, from 1964, the stone is also described as "carefully jointed pink sandstone". Trouble is, Sirapie Der Nersessian never set foot on Aghtamar - all she ever saw of it was from monochrome photographs. So where did she get the sandstone claim from? I think we need to go all the way back to the 19th century. H.F.B. Lynch, who was there in 1898, wrote on page 134 of "Armenia, Travels and Studies", vol 2, London, 1901, that the church had "many faces of fresh pink sandstone". That would seem to be the origin of the sandstone claim. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.143.19 (talk) 00:23, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit by Sockpuppet (User:Ali55te)

We must remove edits of User:Ali55te. If we permit his/her edits, he/she may give up. Because he/she will know all of his/her efforts will become wasted. If we don't permit his/her edits he/she mill come back here. Especially dealing with Turkish sources, we have to pay attention to the fact that User:Ali55te twisted sources for his/her own original explanation. Above all, we must not make forhabitual offenders like him/her to get a taste of sockpuppecy. Same discussion is continuing in Talk:Istanbul Pogrom#Edit by Sockpuppet (User:Ali55te).

An user claimed Adding back in sourced information, bur this website doesn't refer to the Armenian Genocide. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 07:45, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

What did the source say? That there was vandalism of the church? Then this should be added in. JASpencer (talk)

I don't read or speak Turkish, but a Google translation of this source clearly refers to vandalism (including "bullet holes") and "treasure hunting". JASpencer (talk) 09:03, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

Binlerce kurşun deliğinin yüksek tarhribata uğrattığı cephelerde, defineciler tarafından kimi blok taşların sökülmüş olduğu farkedilmiş. can be translated to (but my English is poor):

Treasure hunters became aware of that some block sthones, on the facade which had been highly damaged with thousands of bullet holes, was removed.

We cannot understand who damaged facade, when it was damaged. Maybe during WWI, maybe yesterday. It's clear that block stones was removed.

In short this article is about Zakaria Mildanoğlu's criticism on the way of restoration. Maybe this is also useful. Takabeg (talk) 09:32, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

From the 1920s until the 1950s a small Turkish army post was on the island, and the soldiers stationed there would amuse themselves by using the reliefs as target practice. This is the source of most of the bullet holes. Some Armenian propaganda from the years just before the "restoration", to make mischief, claimed that this damage was more recent. On at least two separate occasions in the 1990s parts of the relief carvings were attacked by unknown persons using sledgehammers, and there was also an attempt to dig out a section of the reliefs. Whether these facts exist in usable sources, I don't know.Meowy 21:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 13 December 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Cathedral of the Holy Cross, Aghtamar per consensus here. (non-admin closure) Tiggerjay (talk) 01:38, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

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Armenian Cathedral of the Holy Cross → Holy Cross Cathedral of Aghtamar – WP:COMMONNAME Երևանցի ^talk 14:27, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

"Armenian Cathedral of the Holy Cross" is not specific and somewhat vague. The island must be mentioned in the title. --Երևանցի ^talk 14:27, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. I would suggest Cathedral of the Holy Cross, Aghtamar in line with usual naming on English Wikipedia. "Holy Cross Cathedral of Aghtamar" sounds odd to native English-speaking ears. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:50, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment. What about Cathedral of the Holy Cross (Aghtamar)? Carlotm (talk) 19:05, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment I support both "Cathedral of the Holy Cross, Aghtamar" and "Cathedral of the Holy Cross (Aghtamar)". Both mention Aghtamar in the title and that was my main point here. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:54, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
• Support Cathedral of the Holy Cross, Aghtamar per WP:NATURAL and because this is a geographical location. sst✈^(discuss) 06:23, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• The Church of the Holy Cross on Akhtamar Island.JPG

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot (talk) 14:36, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Migrate parts if the Akhdamar Island article

Hi there, I would like to migrate parts of the Akhdamar Island article to this article. There is much info about the re-opening of the Cathedral of the Holy Cross, which is not present in this article Any thoughts?.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 08:35, 23 November 2019 (UTC)