Talk:Armenian resistance during the Armenian genocide

under the shadow of? WHAT does that mean?

I seriously do not undertsnad this statement.

" Armenian resistance was developed under the shadow of Armenian Genocide."

If the previous sentence is correct, "Armenian resistance is the military and political activities of the "Armenian militia" or (Social Democrat Hunchakian Party, Armenakan, Armenian Revolutionary Federation) against the Ottoman Empire during the (remove "the" here) World War One"

then how in the world is "in the shadow of" relevant here? it was APPEARENT and OBVIOUS to everyone that an Armenian resistance existed before, during, and after any "genocide". It was not a secret that the Frecnh, Russian, English, and Americans also funded, supported, supplied, and trained the "Armenian resistance" as well. SO this is completely false. Either A is correct or B is corect, not both.

I'm removing the weasel worded one that's without references. You can say "Armenian resistance developed before the Armenian genocide and was put to use during and after" or something like that. --Oguz1 17:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Added some more factual evidence

The Armenian resistance occurred before the Armenian Genocide, not under the shadow of. It was created in order to gain independence from the Ottoman Empire, and was motivated by the emerging nationalist movement that occurred throughout the world.

Please do not try and distort history by adding your propaganda by claiming that the resistance was "under the shadow" of the Armenian Genocide when it was clearly before that. Arsenic99 21:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't the whole point of "Armenian Genocide" that there was no Armenian threat to the Ottoman Empire before it all happened? TheDarkLordSeth (talk)

This article needs to be deleted

The very title is ultra-biased, a total distortion of history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slntssssn (talk • contribs) 16:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

NPOV dispute

I agre that the article is a total distortion of history, but for the moment I don't support its deletion. The article should record the examples of Armenian resistance(mostly unsuccessful) during the Armenian genocide, and as such could probably be little more than a list leading to individual entries.

The article as it currently stands appears to seek to propagate the myth of an "Armenian rebellion" during WW1, a myth that is used as a way of denying or excusing the Armenian genocide. There are almost no sources cited within the article, and no sources at all for all of the article's dubious content. Most of the article is simply invention, starting at its first paragraph. Most of the current text is probably unsalvageable and should be deleted, but the subject itself is worthy of note and coverage. Meowy 21:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It has been over a year, and it looks like things have not got any better here. Unless the article starts to move towards something much better (perhaps something similar in scope to the Jewish resistance during the Holocaust) then I would now support its deletion. One final prompt to improve the article might be to change its title to "Armenian resistance during the Armenian Genocide". Meowy 03:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Wrong Name - the heading should be changed to "Armenian Uprising".

An armed unrest in a country is called "revolt", "uprising" or "mutiny", not resistance. "Resistance" occurs in invaded lands. Armenians attempted an uprising during the WW1 in the Ottoman territory, and were punished dearly. Civilian losses suffered by Turkish, Kurdish and Armenian originated Ottomans were a complete tragedy. However these uprisings can not be called a "resistance" in English language. The header should be changed to "Armenian Uprising".

The one-sided story should also be edited to relieve the souls of those who were hunted down and massacred by Armenian militia. 213.74.84.104 (talk) 22:44, 7 April 2011 (UTC)fft124213.74.84.104 (talk) 22:44, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't agree.

In the article of Khatchig Mouradian "Genocide and Humanitarian Resistance in Ottoman Syria" he precisely called the uprising resistance after the crackdown of the humanitarian network by the Ottoman State and its move into the underground. By making it illegal the efforts became a movement of a humanitarian resistance network. Ramurmel (talk) 12:39, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

http://www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/revolts.html

• I agree. There is no reason to call it resistance. Title should be fixed. TheDarkLordSeth (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:53, 15 August 2011 (UTC).

• I also agree. That is the universal name. There is no reason to make articles in Wikipedia ″according to Armenian sources.″ On the other hand the introduction looks like a Christmas tree adorned with too many blue links. A child would be amazed with that. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 17:14, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

• This note is just to say that I consider any move from the current title to be controversial. That opinion now requires anyone wanting to make such a move to firstly properly propose it, and then properly argue for it. Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_resistance_during_the_Holocaust for a title comparison. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 01:09, 27 April 2014 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.

Were the Jews of Germany armed? Did they open war on their own country? The comparison is meaningless. Regards. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 08:06, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

I will put the above comment down to someone being a bit ignorant about the subject and using Wikipedia as a source. You cannot use the current content of this article to decide on the title of this article. The term "Armenian resistance" does not actually apply to most of the current content of this article. The term originates as civilian Armenian groups formed during the end of the 19th-century to ensure the physical protection of Armenian communities in the vicinity of those groups (i.e. it means the activities of self-defense organisations). In the context of the Armenian Genocide, which is where the term is most often found, and which is the subject of this article, it applies to those few areas where Armenian communities for some period of time resisted the genocide with the knowledge that death awaited them if they did not resist. The connection with what came before is that such resistance was generally founded on there being pre-existing self-defense organisations within those locations that was able to initiate and encourage that resistance. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:16, 3 May 2014 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.

So I am thinking that the first steps to improve the article are to find sources that use the term "resistance", and add the events that are referred to by those sources as examples of that "Armenian resistance", and to remove the content from this article that does not relate to "Armenian resistance" under the term's meaning. If an event is not called by some citable source as being an example of Armenian resistance during the Armenian Genocide then it should not be in the article. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 23:25, 3 May 2014 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.

Has come to my attention that there is an article duplicating much of the material here and containing much genocide denialist content and pov wording: Armenian national liberation movement Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:17, 1 June 2015 (UTC) Blocked sock:Meowy.

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History of Armenian Uprisings Go Way Before 1915

How misleading is it to imply that Armenian violence was simply a reaction to the Ottoman Government policies at the time of WWI? Very much so. Armenian insurgency has pretty much started right after the Berlin Congress 1878. Look up ARF and Hinchak organizations. Numerous uprisings from 1890 and on. All plainly recorded here in Wikipedia, but miraculously omitted in this article, or labeled "resistance"... which usually means an Armenian armed rebellion. Why not call it what it is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.57.11.98 (talk) 16:53, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Soghomon Tehlirian

Over the past week, a series of unregistered users have added a section to this article about Tehlirian. I oppose the inclusion of this content. Per WP:BRD and WP:ONUS, the burden should really be on the editors advocating inclusion of the content to justify themselves here. If anyone agrees with me, I encourage them to revert. I am not eager to continue edit warring with a rotating cast of IPs.

On the content itself, are Tehlirian's actions in 1919 and 1921 within the scope of this article? There's some debate about the end date of the genocide, with this article currently suggesting 1918 as an end date in the infobox. If Tehlirian is to be included, can we limit his mention to a short section listing both assassinations and a link to his article (and maybe that of Talaat Pasha's assassination)? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 05:05, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

@Buidhe and K.e.coffman: as recent reverters of the Tehlirian content, could you state whether you continue to oppose inclusion? I would love to have a consensus to point to during reverts. If anyone else wants to speak in favor of the content, I remain happy to hear it. The current situation, with communication from supporters exclusively happening via edit summary, is frustrating. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:55, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

It's not relevant. Tehlirian is only notable for the assassination which occurred after the genocide was over and therefore cannot be counted as resistance against it. I support removal. (t · c) buidhe 07:05, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

I arrived at the page because an anon Special:Contributions/2.133.30.10 inserted a hoax into another article. After a somewhat casual review, I do support removal. --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:26, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Don't you laugh when you see this nonsense?

It has been said many times that the title is complete nonsense.But the classic tactic of not ignoring the problem applies here.Did the Armenians, who had the power to seize the city of Van, occupied it? Or Van already belong to them? Sometimes I see that wikipedia is no different from reddit.Isn't it time to change that ridiculous headline? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Talatr (talk • contribs) 05:36, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Armenian irregular units

The Armenian Irregular Units per se don't have anything to do with the local resistance in camps or villages. Their units were crucial for the victory of the Russian army in the Caucasus some scholars as Christopher Gunn stipulate, but not present in the camps in mountains and deserts where the killing and dying happened. I would recommend deleting that part and to focus more on resistance movements like Musa Dag and Urfa, which also were armed and violent. Ramurmel (talk) 06:31, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Requested move 7 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) PadFoot (talk) 07:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Armenian resistance during World War I. Whilst there are two oppose !votes, both propose alternative moves signalling dissatisfaction with the present title, and one of these alternative moves is agreed by the nom. No policy reason not to make this move. (non-admin closure) EDIT: RE-LISTED PER TALK PAGE DISCUSSION FOARP (talk) 16:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Armenian resistance during the Armenian genocide → Armenian rebellions – The article talks about not only the Armenian resistance during the genocide, but also before it, and suprisingly it doesn't mention the Muslims killed by Armenians during that era unlike the Turkish WP article. Also, this is a shorter name and more practical since there isn't any other "Armenian resistance". "Armenian rebellions" would also work (and is probably better in my opinion but others would disagree). Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 05:42, 7 October 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Reading Beans 10:21, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Armenian rebellions sounds too vague, Armenian resistance against the Ottomans would be better

Kowal2701 (talk) 19:51, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• Question: Is it suggested for this to include Armenian rebellions outside of Turkey, such as the Syunik rebellion and Artsakh Liberation Struggle? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:32, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, but would support Armenian resistance during World War I. The article should not cover earlier instances of resistance or rebellion. Srnec (talk) 02:22, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  That sounds better Youprayteas ^{talk/contribs} 16:51, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• Re-list Comment - @Youprayteas, Kowal2701, Srnec, and BarrelProof:: Following this discussion with KhndzorUtogh I've re-listed this RM discussion so they can make their !vote and you can discuss it further. FOARP (talk) 08:12, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  I don’t think there was consensus to move, this should’ve been no consensus imo Kowal2701 (talk) 08:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  I had the same conclusion. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 09:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose There are many issues with the move request. Generally only genocide denial sources refer to Armenian resistance as "rebellion" (some examples). In addition to removing mention of the genocide being appeasing to genocide deniers, the new title is not a good description. The article is not about Armenian resistance in Verdun or Tsingtao, so referring to World War I as a whole is not an accurate description. The other major issue is that many sources agree the genocide began before World War I (see Late Ottoman genocides). According to Taner Akçam: The date 24 April 1915 is generally seen as the symbolic beginning of the Armenian genocide, as it marks the date on which some 200 Armenian political, religious and intellectual leaders in Istanbul were arrested. In fact, massacres of Armenians had already begun in the southeastern and eastern provinces of Anatolia and the Caucasus as early as August–September 1914, months before the Ottoman entry into World War One.[1] KhndzorUtogh (talk) 09:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.