Talk:Armenian Legion

Comment

Hey everyone, I think we can still expand and improve the wording in this article. I've noticed there have been some revisions over the past few days. It'd be nice to post here what exactly that you changed just so we don't have to read the entire article to find changes. Hey Tigran. --MarshallBagramyan 21:39, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Yair Auron

Thanks for the reference. I still believe (in fact i'm confidant) that this is a fabrication. I will get back to this article after I thouroughly research the matter and present my references.--Eupator 18:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Auron's source comes from an American historian named Alexander Dallin from his book German Rule in Russia, 1941-1945: A Study in Occupation Policies (London and Basingstoke: Macmillan, 1981, second edition) pp. 229, 251.--MarshallBagramyan 04:47, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

This article was made for a purpose

I felt justification of the Armenian Legion throughout the whole article. An attempt to prove them innocent while throwing a stone at Muslims and Turkics.--Kagan the Barbarian 13:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Justification for what? That is a grossly vague and ambiguous comment. Many Red Army soldiers volunteered to serve in the German Wehrmacht, they were called "Ostruppen" or "East troops" since many of them were from the Baltics, the Ukraine and the other parts of Eastern Europe. The fact that some of them were Armenians makes them no different than French legions defending Berlin in 1945. The Armenian legion was nothing but a logistical and an anti-aircraft battalion in Netherlands, nothing significant about them.

And I'm growing tired of policing you around while you constantly vandalize one Armenian related topic after another without giving any sufficent reasons for them. There are rules on Wikipedia, like assume good faith. I'm trying to assume good faith here because I know articles are never perfect and need outside editing anf fixing but you come off as just another paranoid Turk who thinks there's an Armenian conspiracy against Turks and Turkic people. --MarshallBagramyan 21:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Haha, you are funny. I can say the same with Armenians, thinking there is a great conspiracy against them by Turks. Seriously...

--90.29.149.97 (talk) 20:59, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

No actually I am policing you and I am not being paranoid. I don't think you meant to offend Muslims or Turks with that quote, you just want everyone to think of Armenians as righteous people... even when they are cooperating with Nazis. I think the only person who has issues with Muslims here is Yair Auron.--Kagan the Barbarian 22:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

You misread Auron's take. What he was doing was showing how poor or advocacy based work can in fact an academic discourse.72.75.31.249 13:42, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

That's because throughout history Armenians have been a peaceful, benevolent people which have contributed heavily into works of art and beauty not destruction. That quote in no way should offend Muslims as Eupator and others were inquiring more into what units Hitler trusted and those were Muslims such as the Croats and other Balkan battalions he created. Its a simple truth Adolf Hitler professed to his aides and just because it sounds offending doesn't make it any less true. There's no use in denying that Turkey too, had signed several agreements with Nazi Germany for bilateral cooperation and trade and even copy-cat Nazi uniform designs at the time. But that's not the issue here, you're only advancing in what YOU think is a POV problem, not what it really.

You're missing the point. Why would you make statements about the Armenian-Nazi's helping Jews without explicitly noting the negative things that they did regarding Jews? That's the point. Everything in this article, while probably mostly accurate, mitigates the damage. Look it over, it's true. Other than the admission that they cooperated with Nazis, everything else is positive -- we helped Jews, Hitler didn't trust us, but he did trust Turkic people (and if Hitler doesn't trust you, you must be good, and if he does, you must be bad, right?), barely any of us fought for them, anyhow.

Now, that material, as far as I know, is accurate. It should be in the article, most of it, at least. But surely, there must be something to say which casts a negative light upon NAZIS, something important? That's the whitewash we speak of. Even Nazi-Armenians *seem* to be exonerated of all wrong-doing. I'm not accusing anyone of actually feeling that way about the Nazi-Armenians, but I am saying that the article gives that impression... Now, the history may just not be there, not recorded, I haven't looked too hard (and haven't checked sources on it). Perhaps some of you are more aware of the details of the battallions to which the 18,000 Armenians belonged? If there is such information, it should be included. If it's not, and the material in the article is the only relevant material available, then I don't know how to balance its ostensible theme. However, I do believe it's likely that some of the recorded history which is pertinent is being left out, whether on purpose or not. I hope someone can include it.

Thanks for your time, and I hope my sentiment is appreciated.

And Yair Auron's quote comes from an American historian, read his book and understand that he is quite an amiable writer who researches the sociological aspects of the Genocide. --MarshallBagramyan 23:37, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Armenians like you are doing great damage to Wikipedia NPoV, you are pushing Armenian PoV everywhere. I won't even get into Turkey's neutrality during WWII. Trade agreements? Pfftt, like they mean anything. What about USA-Nazi trade agreements until WWII broke? For example the Ford Motor Company did business in Germany until US entered the war. What about neutral Sweden supplying the Nazis with iron during the war, the most precious element for any war machine. What about the Swiss accepting all the blood stained Nazi money in their banks? USA even granted American citizenship to SS scientists after WWII. Current Pope even is a former SS member. And I am sure there were Armenians who were more than happy to cooperate with the Nazis despite your efforts here to portray all of them as Oscar Schindler.

The truth is the word Nazi today is being used to associate events or people with evil. Nazis are no longer humans gone mad in history but biblical demons from the past. That's why today every group who had something to do with them tries to prove themselves innocent while accusing their enemies or opponents of being Nazi perpetrators in order to hurt their image.

Anyway back to what matters here, I would like to know American writer's sources for knowing such a quote from Hitler; I would like to know if it is sourced or attributed. If attributed then by who.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Trading between a car company (Ford) and trade with a neutral country (Sweden) is much less disparaging than the actually signing of a friendship treaty with Nazi Germany. Some Turkish university professors went so far as to even copy and make mock swastikas and preach anti-semitic ideals and glorification of the Nazi doctrine.

Turkey was hardly a neutral member in World War II. In name perhaps, but in practice, it was just as ready to declare war on the Soviet Union if Stalingrad would fall and march into the heart of Armenia and connect with Azerbaijan. Perhaps this should be included also but one of the people like Dro formulated an Armenian volunteer division was to liberate Armenia from Stalin's grip and to quickly move in and defend any aggressive advances made by the Turkish army in the event Stalingrad would fall. The quote, I now believe to be suspect but I want it to remain until I can check up Dallin's source.

I'm removing the POV tag also since you honestly have no comprehension of its purpose.--MarshallBagramyan 21:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe you are deliberately diverting the discussion. Using shallow and simple accusations and speculations to blur the subject. Without citing sources, I can say Armenians were trying to convince Stalin to declare war on Turkey or Armenians were very happy with getting rid of Jews or Armenians are behind 9/11. See, it is easy. As we say in Turkish, "Throw a mud at someone, its stain will remain"

Anyway, you still haven't given me any sources for the quote or told me anything about any major disobedience within the legion that supports the quote. Look, I am sure there were some Armenians who helped or tried to help the Jews but there were 18,000 of them according to the information you gave and my sources tell me some of them were in Slovenia and Italy as a part of the Eastern Legions fighting the partisans. I would like to hear more about these rather than a fabricated quote. Make informative, fair, NPoV articles. If you find me pushing Turkish POV, tell me.--Kagan the Barbarian 09:21, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Deliberately diverting the discussion? Excuse me but it is not me who is visiting every article and crying "bias!" in Armenian-related issues. These are hardly "shallow" accusations. While the first premise is correct that several Armenians lobbied Stalin to fight and take back Kars and Ardahan from Turkey (the British eventually stopped them and so did the Americans when they formed close ties later on) the latter one with Jews and 9/11 and Armenians makes me question your intelligence and integrity to issues.

Turkey signed a Friendship Treaty with Nazi Germany on 18 June 1941. Turkey had earlier signed an agreement to entering war on the allied side with the French and British in 1939 but this new treaty just went to show that it was more closer fascist Germany than democratic Britain.

"The first was the revival of pan-Turkism....resurfaced in July 1941 under the leadership of professor Zeki Velidi Togan of Istanbul University. Unashamedly racist, in imitation of the Nazis its leaders adopted the trappings of Fascism, down to an imitation-Hitler hairstyle and colourful uniform."

• Henderson, Alexander. January 1945. "The Pan-Turanian Myth in Turkey Today", Asiatic Review, vol. XLI, pp. 88–92

On August 5 1941 German ambassador to Turkey Franz von Papen reported to Berlin that Turkish government "were showing increasing interest in the fate of their kinsmen, 'particularly the Azerbaijan Turks" showing proof Turkey was also determined to invade the Soviet Union in the case of a German victory. He continued:

These circles tend to recollect 1918 events: their wish is to annex the above area, especially the rich Baku oil fields. To these ends a committee of experts has been set up, embodying specialists who once officiated in this type of work during Abdul Hamid's time. This committee is to gather all pertinent material and is to enlist, in Turkey from the ranks of recent emigrants, and from immigrants – notably those in the Azerbaijan province of Iran – support for a union of the new Turkey with the Turk-inhabited regions bordering on it in the east, up to the Caspian sea.

Hostler C. W., "Turkism and the Soviets" New York, 1957, page 172

And of course after the Red Army defeated the Germans in Stalingrad these fasicistic notions were sent back to the filing cabinet.

Although Armenians may have been assimilated into battalions or sent into even smaller regiments I want to see what proof you have to show me. Obviously Hitler's quote sounds questionable but to call it a "fabrication" without citing any proof to the contrary is not bounds for "POV problems" (Auron's source came from a letter that he recieved by a Dutch historian who cited Dallin in his essay to Auron). You are claiming that what is listed in the article is false and hence, the burden of proof lies upon you to disprove it. --MarshallBagramyan 20:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Same old, same old Bagramyan. These are all shallow methods to divert and blur subjects of discussions. You are trying to turn this into a discussion about Turkey. For every sentence I write on this subject, you'll write 5 times more, and at the end you hope my main question will be forgotten. I'll say one thing about this which I am sure you'll counter with 10, during WWII the world hardly knew anything about the fate of Jews; Nazi crimes were later documented and the horrors were revealed. So right now you have access to various sources of information about this subject but people of those times didn't. And don't underestimate the power of Nazi propaganda machine, still today they are considered masters of manipulation.

Anyway, back to the real topic, you haven't given me anything to disprove. I need sources for the quote and if not, we should say it is attributed. Also if there is no record of major disobedience within the Armenian legion, excuse me but it highly increases the chances of that quote being fabricated.--Kagan the Barbarian 21:08, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Look Kagan, when you raise the issue of a discrepancy I don't shun you and say "Ahh Kagan you're just delusional, go away, you're just an ignoramus." No, I don't. When you casually pass off damning information that concludes that Nazi-Turkish friendship was very close during World War II then that tells me you don't like to hear factual, disparaging things about Turkey. As a Turk it may hurt to hear such a thing but Nazi propaganda has nothing to do with this, you only wish and believe it does. You are the one ignoring my evidence Kagan, don't complain to me if you dislike what you read and hear.

The burden of proof lies on you Kagan. I didn't raise the issue of POV problems with the article, you did. If there is something truly wrong with the article then show me impartial proof that disproves the facts in said article. Concerning Hitler's quote, it is found in Auron's book when he speaks about the Armenian Legion; wherein he cites his source: an essay sent by his Dutch historian friend where the Dutchman cites Dallin in the text. I cannot make it any more clearer for you as to where my source was found.Seeing as neither you nor Eupator has yet to offer me the evidence to the contrary, the quotation remains where it is. Until then, when you raise an objection, cite proof that shows clear evidence to the contrary.

If you remain mute upon the topic and don't give me anything to work with you cannot possibly fault me for inactivity. Information on the topic is scarce, especially in Western studies where apparently the 812th is most significant and notable.--MarshallBagramyan 21:47, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing in Turkish-Nazi Germany relations that shame me because unlike you they didn't see Schindler's List. What I find amusing is while we have 18,000 Armenians on one hand, first person witnesses and cooperators in Nazi crimes, you defend them here yet on the other hand we have citizens of Turkey who knew nothing about what was going on in Europe at the time other than what they heard on the radio or what they were told and yet you are desperately trying to make them look like Nazi perpetrators here. Sorry pal, Turkey did a fine job keeping itself neutral during WWII, and thanks to that it became a refuge for many Jews in the Balkans and Greek islands; I am sure they are all very thankful Turkey did not enter WWII and did everything necessary to keep itself out, more than 100,000 Jews were saved in Turkey, never forget that. What about Armenia? Armenians ironically are not only cooperators in Nazi crimes but also Soviet. You think I'll pass Stalin as a saint? Definitely not, Stalin is unarguably Hitler with a more manly moustache.

Once again back to the real topic. A historians words can not be considered a source for a quote, it needs to show records, that how we know a quote is sourced. Do you want me to explain? Video footage, authentic papers, audio record; these are what we consider a source for words that came out of a wo/man's mouth or hand. Also you still haven't said anything about the Armenian troops who actively fought in Slovenia and Italy and it goes unmentioned in the article.

You as well as I know this article was written for a purpose and it is definitely Armenian PoV.--Kagan the Barbarian 07:16, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

You keep speaking about these crimes the Armenian soldiers committed but I'm dumbfounded as to why you have refrained from displaying them. Show me, reveal to me the source and I'll judge if its worthy in adding the additional information. How can I defend their "crimes" if I have no idea what crimes you are even talking about. The testimonies from the Jewish POWs come from interviews and so are more difficult to discredit.

Even your claim that "Turkey was a haven for Jews during the war" is misleading. Several times Turkey refused to accept Jews into their country and in times when it did, it was because the Jews had Turkish citizenship.

Your analogy in comparing Armenians' brutality to Stalin's rank is the most ridiculous thing I have heard. Everyone in the Soviet Union was persecuted by Stalin and Armenians were no exception. If you disagreed with Stalin or were suspected to, then you would be tortured and killed. You are truly revealing that you too, have POV problems and are pushing it to villify Armenians and equate to the rank of Nazis. 500,000 Armenians fought for the Soviet Union during the war, over half did not return. There were 4 Armenian Marshals including one Admiral and over 60 generals during the war. Armenian soldiers liberated Auschwitz, stormed the Reichstag and captured Berlin.

Can Turkey ever claim such honors?

Yair Auron is a scholar and its up the job of a scholar to cross reference his resources. I can go back and check his sources but you have yet to present me any evidence of the contrary which nullifies and deteriorates the integrity of your claims. I am unbeknownest of the activity or even the existence of Armenian soldiers in Slovenia and elsewhere but since you brought them up, then show me something about them. I don't have any sources on them, you do, so you reveal to me your sources are and I'll take a look at it.

Look, I'm tired of putting up with you because you have been all talk and allegations since I met you. I tried to understand your arguments but all you do is cry "POV problems" then go on to claim something then abstain from substantiating said claim. If you have nothing to add except allegations, then why continue this insipid debate? --MarshallBagramyan 20:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Did I write Armenians committed crimes? No, I wrote Armenians cooperated in Nazi crimes. Can you deny this? There were 18,000 serving in the Wehrmacht, that in English dictionary is cooperation. And I gave you links, especially the one written in Russian or Armenian seems to be a good source, read it -because I don't know either language- and please share with me the information. I personally would like to know more about the Armenians who fought in Slovenia and Italy. Some may saved some Jews, I praise them but hell, I am sure there were many officers in the Wehrmact who in some way helped the Jews or the Slavs or other people but that is not the case for entire German Army, is it?

Let's face it. If Germany declared war on Turkey, they would eventually invade at least a portion of Western Turkey, where nearly all Turkish Jewish population -more than 100,000- was located. And we both know their fate wouldn't be too different than that of Greek Jews. Now, of course Turkey wouldn't want to openly provoke the beast that is Nazi Germany, by officialy accepting non-Turkish citizen Jews fleeing from the SS during WWII. But we all know they turned a blind eye to illegal transport of Jews in to Turkey. I am not saying Turks are saints but this is what happened or would happen if Turkey entered the war so let's be honest about it. Some links: [1], [2], [3].

Armenian soldiers -generals, marshalls, admirals- helped Stalin replace Fascism with Communism. The true freedom to Europe came from Allied forces. Yes Turkey doesn't share Soviet honor of replacing one evil with another but they take pride in fighting the communists in the Korean War. Where the Turkish brigade infamously secured UN forces a safe retreat to Pyon-Yang during the Kunuri Battle, which includes charging the enemy uphill with bayonets[4], [5], [6].

I am asking for simple things from you, Bagramyan. If you can show a true source for Adolph Hitler's quote then of course it should stay the way it is, otherwise the quote can still remain but please mention it is attributed to Hitler by an American historian and there were actually no major disobedience in the legion that supports such quote.

As for my sources, well they are the links I posted below to Moosh88. In the first, which is a forum, a user mentions Armenians fighting the partisans in Slovenia and Italy as a part of the Eastern legions. Of course I am sure you won't look into it to see if it is true.

Who is adding allegations? Who brought up Turkish-Nazi affairs as if it has something to do with this? And now I am the POV pusher? Make this article NPOV or I'll make my own research and rewrite this article. And yes I can.--Kagan the Barbarian 10:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

The German Wehrmacht could not be regarded as a perpetrator of Nazi crimes; that dubious honor was bestowed upon by SS units who took an oath to carry out the ideals of Nazism. Nearly all of the Wehrmacht generals and field marshals were devoted to the traditional Prussian tradition dating back to the 19th century and hence, were much more benevolent and committedto fighting a "clean" war. Most of the German soldiers in the Wehrmacht did not even belong to the Nazi party or subscribe to its ideals and were in a sense, doing their "patriotic" duty. Whereas the SS took the crux of the crimes and atrocities on behalf of Nazi Germany. Using your logic, I can now villify all soldiers who took up arms in the Wehrmacht: the Finns, the Ukranians, the Baltic countries, the French, the Austrians, the Dutch, the Belgians, the Poles, the Croats, etc. etc. But that doesn't make sense does it? To have even mildly criticized the Nazis in the occupied territrories would have been suicide.

Soviet military commanders had no choice, that includes Armenians, Azeris, Ukranians, Russians and Georgians. What part don't you understand? "You don't want to command? Fine, we'll shoot you first and then we'll pick the next person in line for your job. He doesn't want to do it either? Fine, shoot him and pick the next person in line." Stalin was bad, but in a time where Nazism had vowed to destroy the Slavs at the same time, and was invading the USSR, people forgot about the grievances of communism and united to fight back and destroy the truer evil in Germany. Armenians were described as the most patriotic and devoted republic of the entire USSR by one BBC commentator in 1942.

Yes, I've heard of the Turkish feats in the Korean War but even then that can viewed as Turkey attempting to tout aide from the Western powers and to create an impression for the United Nations. I brought up Turkey's relations to Nazi Germany when you began mentioning so and so many Jews were rescued by a benevolent Turkey. I went onto show that Turkey's ambitions were far more nefarious and this included in siding with Nazi Germany for a possible invasion into the USSR, thus reviving Pan-Turanist ideals.

I've stated it before, I'll look into Auron's source on Hitler's quote and search out for the book itself but asides from that POV problems with this article are non-existant. Hitler's quote refers to the reluctance of accepting the creation of an Armenian battalion; perhaps he may have changed his views later on, perhaps not. And, I'm not going to take the word of some obscure forum and an Armenian created website.

How credible would it be to use that kind of information on Wikipedia? I want citations from book, citations from a war journal or something reputable. Joris Versteeg, the historian from Auron's book furthermore cites the details of the 812th from the director of the West German military archives, J. Hoffman in the book Kaukasien 1942/1943 Das Deustche Heer und die Orientvolker der Sovjetunion (Freiburg 1991). Show me some better resources and we'll see how far we can go. If you cannot then this article remains virtually unchanged.--MarshallBagramyan 19:11, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Still, it doesn't make them murderers but it does make them cooperators. I am not saying villify the Armenian legion here but don't try to picture all 18,000 of them as saints either. It is an insult to the intelligence of people reading it.

Marshall Bagramyan, on your user page, doesn't look very uncomfortable of being a Soviet general to me. As much as I know, Armenian relations with the Soviet authority wasn't really that bad as you make it sound. Anyway, Soviets did save the Slavs from a greater evil but my point was, after all they weren't saints either. So in both occasions, Armenians cooperated -or had to cooperate- with Nazis and Soviets.

Turkey sent troops to Korea for a reason like every other nation, this is how international politics work, what do you think this is? Stalin's Soviets were the enemy and it was right at Turkey's door, of course they had to make an impression in Korea. Still, soldiers on the battlefield care little about politics and what the Turkish brigade achieved is admirable.

Many Jews were saved in Turkey. And I am talking about Jews who already lived in Turkey for centuries. When I see Greeks and Armenians accuse Turkey of not joining WWII, I wonder if they really care about what its consequences would be. And this Pan-Turanism thing is ridicilous, a speculation mostly believed by Armenians and isn't even worth discussing here.

Back to the article. I think we need a "neutrality and factual accuracy" tag for the page. Fac. acc. for the quote and neutrality for the rest of the article. And I don't consider books more reliable sources than webpages, even books need to cite sources.

Anyway, see you in the future Bagramyan.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Throughout the war, Turkey walked a tightrope, balancing the needs and expectations of the Nazis against those of the Allies. While Istanbul was a center of spying and intrigue during the war, Turkey took no overt action against the Nazis, and in turn the Nazis never violated Turkey’s borders. In October 1941, Turkey signed an important trade agreement with Germany. In exchange for raw material, especially chromium, Germany would supply Turkey with war materials and other finished goods. Turkey’s chromium was critical for the Nazis as it was their sole source for the vital element in steel making. Albert Speer stated that Turkey’s chromium was so vital to the Nazis that war production would come to a complete stop 10 months after the supply was cut off.

Take a look at this link. http://www.hellenicnews.com/readnews.html?newsid=2554〈=US--Moosh88 20:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Moosh, very unbiased. Hellenic News, my daily source of information about Turks as well.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:03, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Above it was mentioned that Armenians were involved in the liberation of Auschwitz. Then it is asked if Turkey has ever had such honors. This is immaterial. This article is about the fact that Armenians fought for the Nazis!!!! I think that more than outweighs the fact that Turks may have at some point worn a mustache that bears a resemblance to Hitler's. Turkey was on the side of the US, and trade is something very different from actually joining the military.

There is absolutely no reason Turks or Turkey should be discussed in this article. Please. Remember why we're here: to work on a neutral encyclopedia, one that tells of the failures and triumphs of all people. Both Turks and Armenians have their share of each. Let's just tell the story correctly, and leave hatred in the past.

General Dro, just an all too typical Nazi with poor education - no real interest in education really, just in brainlessly emotional fascism because you feel you are a nation to be led and so your mission is important. No need for rational thought, just blind Nazism where people other than those you think are "your nation" just simply don't matter. Shame he didn't learn more basic stuff at school. A lot of his vicitms had to pay the price he exacted. Why on earth anyone can find this "heroic" is simply appalling confirmation of the power of Nazi fascination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.70.130.115 (talk) 17:43, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Moosh88

You can't remove the POV tag untill the dispute is over. If this article isn't Armenian PoV, I don't know what is. It consists of 5% information about legions structure, 95% about how actually they were anti-Nazi at heart, as if we can say that for a legion of thousands that served in the German Wehrmacht. I did some research and some suggest they fought in Slovenia and Italy as a part of the Eastern Legions[7], also someone mentions this site but I don't know Armenian so [8].

Also the quote from Adolph Hitler needs to cite sources, otherwise it has to be mentioned that the quote is attributed to Adolph Hitler by an American historian (Alexander Dallin). I'd also like to know if there were any major rebellions or disobedience within the Armenian Legion that supports this quote. Thank you.--Kagan the Barbarian 09:17, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

I actually agree with you on this my barbarian friend from Altai. I believe the quotes attributed to Hitler are total fabrications. I suggest you make an article about the various Turkic Nazi legions in order to display what a similar article shoudl look like. Also shouldn't you add this tag to Georgian Legion ?--Eupator 21:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

It is evident from his numerous comments that Eupator is a racist Islamaphobe who has a particular dislike for anything that is even remotely Turkish. And this is not a personal attack as I have ample proof with regards to his behavior. On several occasions he has not hesitated to make racist remarks to attack those that dont agree with him. This Armenian nationalist should be banned from the wiki site or, at the very least, ignored because he doesnt deserve any better! 81.62.128.142 11:49, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

The problem is I don't know anything about Turkic Legions except that they existed as a part of the Eastern Legions. Even if I made the page, trust me I wouldn't put stuff like, "Hitler once said "God, these Turks sure love Jews. I don't trust them one bit, Himmler, write down my words so everybody in the future will know I didn't trust Turks and they can't be held responsible for my evil actions" or "Turkic legion did nothing wrong, they usually missed their targets deliberately or faked shooting by shouting "BLAM BLAM" and saved hundreds of Jews and partisans, God bless them."

If you found Georgian Legion un-neutral then put the tag and tell them your reasons. I don't know anything about the subject. Cheers Armenian brother!--Kagan the Barbarian 09:32, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Deletion of Turkish article by johnstevens

Give us some better information from some immpartial and neutral sources Steven.

Thanks --MarshallBagramyan 05:21, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

---

Armenian Nazi collaboration - Objective Sources

The Armenian Dashnaks siding with Nazi's is a historical fact.

The archive's verify this.

I'd like to proove and verify this from Objective sources.

"...Nevertheless there remains the incontestable fact that relations between the Nazis and Daschnaks living in occupied areas were close and active. On 30 december 1941 an Armenian batallion was created by a decision of the Wehrmacht, known as the Armenian 812th Battalion. It was commanded by Dro, and was made up of committed recruits, and a number of Armenians from the prisoners of war taken by the Nazis in their sweep eastwards. Early on the total number was 8000; this number later grew to 20,000. The 812 th Batallion was operational in the Crimea and the North Caucasus. A year later, on 15 December 1942, an Armenian National Council was granted official recognition by Alfred Rosenberg, the German minister of the occupied areas. The Council president was Professor Ardasher Abeghian, its vice-president Abraham Guilkhandanian and it numbered among its members Nzhdeh and Vahan Papazian. From that date until thje end of 1944 it published a weekly journal, Armenian, edited by Viken Shantn (the son of Levon) who also broadcast on Radio Berlin...Hence it was important to prove to the Nazis that the Armenians were Aryans. With the aid of Dr. Paul Rohrbach they seem to have achieved this..."

Christopher J. Walker's "Armenia —The Survival of a Nation," page 357, para 2.

That Nazi Armenians like Dro 'the Butcher', Armenian architect of the genocide of 2.5 million Muslim people, and Nezhdeh sided with the Germans probably had an impact on the decision of Armenians who overwhelmingly opted for armed service.

[1] Enno Meyer, A. J. Berkian, _Zwischen Rhein und Arax, 900 Jahre Deutsch-Armenische beziehungen_ (Heinz Holzberg Verlag-Oldenburg 1988), pp. 118/119. [2] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), ibid., p. 19.

In fall 1942, the Armenian infantry battalions 808 and 809 were formed, to be followed by battalions 810, 812 and 813 in spring 1943. In the second half of 1943 infantry battalions 814, 815 and 816 were created. These battalions together with other indigenous Caucasian units were attached to the infantry division 162. Also attached to ID 162 were the field battalions II/9, I/125 and I/198 which were formed between May 1942 and May 1943. Altogether twelve Armenian battalions served the Nazi army, if battalion II/73, which was not employed at any time, is to be included.[1] Most battalions were commanded by Nazi Armenian officers. Armenians wore German uniforms with an armband in the Dashnag colours red-blue-orange and the inscription _Armenien._

[1] Joachim Hoffmann, _Dies Ostlegionen 1941-1943, Turkotataren, Kaukasier und Wolgafinned im deutschen Heer_ (Verlag Rombach Freiburg 1976), p. 172.

The Armenian SS unit was formed following a directive of Himmler in the beginning of December 1944.[1] The Armenian Liaison Staff actively recruited volunteers[2] and by February 1945 a cavalry formation of twenty thousand Armenians was integrated into the larger Caucasian Waffen-SS unit. The Armenian SS formation was employed last in Klagenfurt.[3] In addition to this exclusively Armenian unit, Nazi Armenians also served in the thirty eight other SS divisions, one of them even in the elite _Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler._[4]

[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., pp. 136-137. [2] United States National Archives, T-175, Roll 167, pp 2700157/2700158, SS-Headquarters, Amtsgruppe D - Oststelle, see _Documents 3 and 4._ [3] Georg Tessin, _Verbaende und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945,_ (Frankfurt am Main 1965-1980), Volume 14, Armenian Legion/Waffen SS. [4] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 119.

Derounian says that

"Greece was honeycombed with Armenians serving as Nazi spies." [1]

Many Nazi Armenians were arrested by the British and sentenced by the Greek government as collaborators in espionage.[2] In Rumania many Nazi Armenians were found in Antonescu's Iron Guard during arrest of members after the war. Bulgaria was the operational base of Tzeghagrons-founder Garagin Nezhdeh, who commanded a network of espionage from there.

[1] John Roy Carlson (Arthur Derounian), ibid., p. 20. [2] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 150.

In Russia General Dro (the Butcher), the architect of the Muslim Holocaust in ex-Soviet/Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia, was working closely with the German Secret Service. He entered the war zone with his own men and acquired important intelligence about the Soviets. His experience with the Muslim Holocaust in ex-Soviet/Russian Armenia and Eastern Anatolia made him an invaluable source for the Germans.[1]

[1] Meyer, Berkian, ibid., p. 113; Patrick von zur Muehlen, ibid., p. 84.

Numerous articles in major newspapers (London Times) and periodicals (Newsweek) during the war, had suggested the existence of a significant collaboration between Armenians and the Nazis. Arthur Derounian deserves credit for being the first person to deal with this issue extensively. Derounian's motives were twofold: his deeply held democratic convictions gave him a sense of duty and he felt obliged to shed light on this yet another dark chapter of Armenian history. Concurrently, Derounian embarked on what one would call "crisis control" or face-saving. In order to forestall any potential attacks on the larger Armenian community in the United States, he marginalized collaboration as deplorable but insignificant.[1]

[1] John Roy Carlson (real name Arthur Derounian), _The Plotters_ E. P. Dutton & Company, Inc., New York 1946, p. 182.

This are objective fact's, I don't want to here Armenian extremists uttering the same old nonsense.

As a Brit, involved in the justice system I wish to see the realities exposed and these little known facts must be revealed as the Armenian Lobbies in the West have for far too long pretended to be the innocent, angelic, butter wouldn't mealt in their mouth nation.

General Dro was a Nazi General and had previously massacred innocent Turks in Eastern Anatolia where the Armenians claim a genocide occured, no wonder they want to keep this secret.

On another note, Nazi General Dro is today a national hero in Armenia, its time Nazi generals cease to be heralded as great people.

I have images of Armenian Nazi's aswell in their uniforms I would like to add them.

Regards

JohnStevens5

This is a true testament to the racist nature of the Armenian psyche! Weems was not mistaken to call them a nation of terrorists! Lutherian 18:58, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Armenian legion in the French army

Any reference to this notorious group of thugs? The ones who murdered thousands of moslem men, women and children on the Eastern parts of Anatolia between 1918-1921? Lutherian 18:03, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh no, the leech is back! Lutherian 18:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Refrain from using personal attacks. Wikipedia has a policy prohibiting personal attacks and in extreme cases the user making the attacks may be blocked for disruption. Please don't make comments like that again. --Eupator 18:23, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Personal attack? What do you say about the Turkish text above? Thats a prime example of a personal attack, or does Turkish not count when it comes to personal attacks? Lutherian 18:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh and you who wrote the following back in March: "I'm not sure if English is your first language or whether you have cognitive issues but the meer suggestion that a new user such as yourself that jumps into controversial topics might perhaps be a sockpuppet is not only not a personal attack but a daily occurance on wikipedia. Fear not, this is not turkey or mongolia. You are innocent until proven otherwise.--Eupator 15:57, 28 March 2006 (UTC)" and you dare to give me lessons on personal attacks? LOL Lutherian 18:45, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Withdrawn. ;) —Khoikhoi 18:51, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Why are my objective historic source's being removed? please stop this vandalization, you already have made a ridicule of this post.

Its clear Armenians are trying to hide these facts, the more lies you tell the more lies you have to create to cover up the lies you first told.

Now stop erasing my additions, they are properly sourced and researched, if you don't like it tough this is an Encyclopedia and does not deal with the subjective views of Armenian Nationslist Extremists.

p.s What has the Invented Quote with Hitler regarding some Turkic mumbo jumbo got to do with this?

Regards.

JohnStevens5

Attention to readers of this talk page, JohnStevens5 is fabricating quotations

Checking page 172 of Joachim Hoffmann book, this is what we find is written:

Bergmann 3 weitere Feldbataillone, insgesamt also 90 Feldverbande geschaffen, die sich ihrer Nationalitat nach in 26 turkestanishe, 15 azerbajdzanische, 13 georgische, 12 armenische, 9 nordkaukasische, 8 krimtatarische und 7 wolgatatarische oder wolgafinnische Feldbataillone gliederten. Diesen 90 Feldbataillonen der fechtenden Truppe mit einem Mannsschaftsbestand von rund 90 000 Mann (davon etwa 3000 Deutschen) sind aber noch das eine Sonderrolle spielende Kalmykische Kavallerie-Korps (maximal 5000 Mann) sowie die Verbande und Einheiten der nichtfechtenden Truppe hinzuzurechnen, die sich im einzelnen kaum ubcrschen lassen. Es handelte sich hierbei um die Stammbataillone von 11 nationalen Legionen in Starke von rund 11 000 Mann, um 5 Arbeits- oder Arbeitsersatzbataillone der Brigade Boller in Starke von 20 000 Mann, um mindestens 10 weitere Ersatz-, Feldzeug-, Nachschub- oder Baubataillone in Starke von annahernd ebenfalls 10000 Mann und uberdies um nicht weniger als 202 Einheiten wie Feldzeug-, Nachschub-, Baupionier-, Eisenbahnbaupionier- und Strassenbaupionierkompanien sowie Tragtierkolonnen (111 turkestanische, 30 georgische, 22 armenise, 21 azerbajdzanische, 15 wolgatatarische und 3 nordkaukasische)[345] sowie um eine nicht identifizierte Anzahl weiterer kleinerer Einheiten oder einzelner Gruppen in deutschen Formationen. Es sei ausdrucklich bemerkt, dass die dieser Studie zugrundegelegte Gesamtzahl von 150 000 bis 170 000 Angehorigen der Volker Turkestans, des Kaukasus, des Wolga-Uralge- bietes und der Krim in militarischen Diensten auf deutscher Seite die unterste Grenze aller Schatzungen bildet, die sich nach denen sachverstandiger Mithandelnlder im allgemeinen auf mindestens 250 000 Mann belaufen[346]. Selbst aber wenn man nur die 90 aus Angehorigen der nichtrussischen Minderheitenvolker geschaffenen Feldverbande sowie das 345 Vgl. Anm. 92; Feldpostubersicht (II); Verzeichnis von Freiwilligen-Verbanden aus dem Osten in der deutschen Wehrmacht (II).

346 RF SS, SS-HA-Amtsgruppe D, Oststelle, Meldung uber die vorhandenen fremdvolkischen Verbande bei Wehrmacht, SS, Polizei und die Er- satzgestellung fur diese Verbande, 18.10. 1944 (BA, NS 31/41); Gabliani, S. 2 (II); Seraphim, Erfahrungen mit Ostfreiwilligen, S. 5 (II); Heygen- dorff, Turkvolkische und Kaukasische Verbande, S. 5 (II); vgl. aud Muhlen, S. 60.

Which basically says that there was 26 Turkistani battalions, 15 Azerbaijani battalions, 13 Georgian battalions, 12 Armenian battalions, 9 Northern Caucasian battalions, 8 Crimerian Tartar battalions and 7 Volga Tartar battalions. This is basically what this source say. But of course for some it is satisfying to autor existing works to give some credence to their fertile imagination.

As for Walker's work, one might read the section regarding World War II and Armenian involvment from the online copy of the book, chapter 9 [9] press Ctrl and F, and type The Second World War and you will land on the relevant section. So much of the Armeno-NAZI link.

Of course the rest doesn't worth much answering Serdar fabrications presented in the newsgroups that are here recycled.

The 18,000 Armenians in German army, were mostly prisoners of war, from whom 11,000 were field battalions and 7,000 in supply. The official Dashnak position was AGAINST Germany, and its headquarters in Cairo was clearly pro-British. Beside that, Hitler was not interested to have Armenians and Georgians in his army, because he was not convinced of their royalty. Those that haven't deserted were mostly sent to the Netherlands where most deserted. (See: “German Rule in Russia 1941-1945” by Alexander Dallin)

Those fanatic nationalist Turks who find nothing better than invating Armenian related articles injecting their hate against the Armenians should pay a closer look at what Turkey did in WWII and its sympathy for NAZI Germany. Here is what happened in Turkey during that period. In May 10, 1934, student associations were distributing Swastikas at university levels. Later, German officials in the guise of assistant professors, accompanied their colleagues in the Tukish army, with the purposes of making the promotion of Nazism( Dr. Ayhan Aktar, Varlik Vergisi ve 'Türklestirme' Politikalari. (The Capital Tax and and the politics of turquification), Iletisim Publishers, Istanbul, 2000)

Later an agreement between NAZI Germany and Turkey was made preventing Jewish immigration to Turkey. On December 15, 1941, the ship named “Struma” with 761 Jewish passengers escaping the NAZI invasion arrives in Istanbul and asks for the authorization to cross the Bosphorus. The ship had to wait until February 24, 1942, over a month of negotiations between the allies and Turkey, requesting Turkey to permit the passage, Turkey denied access. They haven't even fed the passengers, who were dying of famine, the Ship had to return, where it was torpedoed by a submarine. One survivor. One day after, people would have expected the prime minister to apologies, but no, the then prime minister Refik Saydam, happy to respect their agreement with Germany declared: “Turkey cannot be the destination of undesirable refugees” While in 1942 NAZI Germany takes the decision to destroy the Jews, on November 11 of the same year, Turkey come up with the Capital tax against the Jews, Armenians and Greeks, and even propositions are made of their deportation, the capital tax was justified with this remark: “Against those who profit from the hospitality offered by this country and become wealthy, while at the same time abrogate their responsibilities at this critical moment, the law will be applied with full force”. Turkey had even plans to join Germany to invade SSR Armenia, when Germany was to take Stalingrad. A report was make regarding the Jews, Armenians and Greeks. For the Greeks, it was written among many other things: “On the 500th anniversary of the conquest of Istanbul by the Ottoman forces, not one Greek should be left in the city.” About the Armenians: “Armenians are not assimilable and those who survive must be encouraged to depart (emigrate).” And for the Jews: “Stop all Jewish immigration, while provoking incidents within the country with the goal of creating a Jewish exodus, keep them away from all government activity, be it financial or economic” (source: Ridvan Akar, Askale Yolculari—Varlik Vergisi ve Çalisma Kamplari (Passengers to Askale—Capitial Tax and forced labour camps), Belge Uluslararasi Yayincilik, Istanbul, 1999) Is this enough? No not enough. In 1948, 40,000 Turkish Jews living in Istanbul have run away in Israel. Embarrassed and exposed, Turkey was the first Muslim state to recognize Israel.

Let now take a closer look at Turkey did more. At the outbreak of the war, Turkey mined 190,000 tons of chromite, 1/5 of the world total output. (See: Turkish Foreign Policy 1943-1945: Small State Diplomacy and Great Power Politics by Edward Weisband) Those were the result of agreements between Germany and Turkey, Turkey becoming the major German supplier, of this essential material for the military. Turkey later signed another contract with Germany to provide 135,000 tones, regardless of the allies pressures to stop. The German minister of armaments and munitions declared that chromium was the element with the shortest supply, and was indispensable to a highly developed armaments industry. Turkey permitted the German armament developments, ignoring the continuous allied requests. As the German Minister for Armaments and Munitions Albert Speer confirmed when he wrote in his memoirs: "Hence the element in shortest supply is chromium. This is especially grave since chromium is indispensable to a highly developed armaments industry. Should supplies from Turkey be cut off, the stockpile of chromium is sufficient only for 5.6 months. The manufacture of planes, tanks, motor vehicles, tank shells, U-boats, and almost the entire gamut of artillery would have to cease from one to three months after this deadline, since by then the reserves in the distributions channels would be used up." He then declared that if it wasn't of Turkish supply: "no more or less than that the war would be over approximately ten months after the loss of the Balkans." (Albert Speer, Inside the Third Reich: Memoirs, translated by Richard and Clara Winston (New York and Toronto, 1970)). In short without Turkeys help, the war would have not continued more than months. I could continue and discuss regarding the “Missing Jews” or the missing gold bars looted by NAZI Germany and transferred to Turkey. Do you want that I document this as well, or IS IT ENOUGH??? Now, spare us and leave good intentioned people contribute to Wikipedia without having to waste their times answering hateful characters that are only here to cause troubles. Fad (ix) 17:04, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

That bullcrap was merely copy pasted from already discredited propaganda websites. The scoundrel didn't even bother to paraphrase that baloney.--Eupator 17:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Hey Einstein, who welcomed the Jews that were being expelled and/or murdered wholesale during the Spanish inquisition more than 500 years ago? Who was it that welcomed German Jewish scholars together with their families and gave them residence in prime locations and paid them top salaries well above their Turkish colleagues? Whos diplomats saved the lives of scores of Jews all across Europe? which country was key to the creation of the state of Israel due to its strategic location as a gateway for European Jews and where in the world do you think the Mossad secret service came to being? Oh and before I forget, which country was the first in the world to recognize Israel (well before the US did)? Well it certainly was not Armenia or the Armenians as they were busy helping their christian brothers in the mass slaughter scheme against the Jews. Oh and why are you so quiet about the French Armenian legion? So so please keep your petty small talk lies to yourself because thats the only place where they belong. Lutherian 18:09, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Did you read was is above? You should. I guess it is in Armenia that Hitler's book was a best seller. Also you might read those reports too. [10], [11], [12]. I doubt you would have answered this had you read what I wrote above. Fad (ix) 18:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

You really disgust me, we are mentioning history and now you are again changing the subject and focusing on something else, ie the present. For your information, in Turkey there is freedom of the press far freer than in Europe of even the States. Because a few misguided journalists write antisemitic articles does not mean that the government sponsors them or that the public approve of it! You have uneducated religious freaks in Turkey just like anywhere else in the world although I must confess that its probably much less than in Armenia, and this is the market that these vile journalists target. Believe it or not, you even have devil worshippers in Turkey and their membership is grownig exponentially! God bless them!Lutherian 18:32, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Me disgusting? You must be kidding, the things I wrote were about WWII, and the reports were true about the current situation but they were more than about the few journalists you are talking about. Disgusting is to talk about an Armeno-NAZI collaboration when Alfred Rosenberg supposed cranial research were placing Armenians as Christian Jews and to be sent in concentration camps, which they actually did in the occupied territories, before Dro started kissing NAZI a$ and getting Armenians out from the camps. Had you ever bothered searching about the French resistance and l'Afiche rouge, never heard of Manouchian? Or the Soviet Thank named 'Sassountsi David' bought by the Diaspora and being sent between heavily attacked German fronts? Shall I start quoting what the NAZI had to say about the Armenians? That's actually disgusting, it weren't the Turks who were classified as Aryan by the Germans that had to convince Rosenberg that they weren't Jews and threatned for execution. Armenian gave 300,000 to 500,000 of their males to the Soviet army while Turkey had imposed its special tax against the Jews, Greeks and Armenians and was selling chromium to the Germans which without it, the war would have been over. The only thing your contribution here shows is that you are pathologically troubled by your perverted hate against the Armenians. Fad (ix) 18:54, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

You know why you lack credibility my dear Fadix? Its because you attempt to whitewash every single Armenian that has ever existed at any point in history. According to you every single Armenian past or present has been or is a model citizen of the world. Please, go dump your Dro rubbish in the toilet where it belongs....and dont forget to flush cuz it stinks like hell Lutherian 19:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

My lack of credibility is the product of your imagination. I can care less of your issinuations about me. Fad (ix) 19:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Thats why you have spent and continue to spend so much of your precious time responding to me? Now now, you are contradicting yourself Grand Inquisitor!!! Lutherian 19:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

So Lucifer, you mean to tell me that in this freedom of speech paradise anyone can go and burn the turkish flag in ankara like we can do here in the US with our flag? Can the average Joe deface an image of your God ataturk like we can do in Europe or the States with our leaders images and whatnot? Go feed your crap to someone else troll and enough of this irrelevant spamming. This is not a discussion forum.--Eupator 18:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Einstein, I cant be bothered to respond to a racist like yourself. You are certainly not worthy of my time (excpt maybe for the few seconds it took me to write this). Lutherian 19:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Have a nice life buddy. As my last favor to you i'll direct you to: Ad-hominem.--Eupator 19:12, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

and to return the courtesy, I would like to direct you to: Ad_nauseum. Lutherian 19:26, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yep I know, so was my answer, I copypasted what I wrote in the past to answer this same fabrication. :) Fad (ix) 17:16, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

You guys are being ridiculous. First, I must say, Turkey does have freedom of speech, and, although the limitations imposed on it are slightly different in different countries. In France you can't even question whether the word genocide is the best way to communicate what happened during that period, in the US you can't mention "bong hits for Jesus" during school hours, and in Turkey you may not be able to burn a flag, I'm not sure. But I must point out that the United States has many times brought up legislation that would criminalize flag burning. By the way, if we're so backwards, why do we have female Prime Ministers -- that's indicative of very significant progressive sentiment in the country. So, you're not going to find many countries where speech is freer than in Turkey, certainly not in the US, and not in Europe (or at least not in France). Anyhow, I couldn't let your criticism stand un-answered.

Second, and on topic, it's absurd for this thread to end with you guys attacking the man who was on the correct side, the guy who was saying that the Armenians fought with the Nazis. And that's a bad thing. And the man you criticized also pointed out another truth, a truth about the way you guys conduct dialogues like this one over the 'net: you absolutely refuse to admit that any Armenian could have done anything wrong or unjustified, esp. if that person is thought to have been working for advancing the interests of his people.

This shouldn't be controversial. Dro was a Nazi, the Nazis did horrible things. Thus, Dro was a bad man. Period. How is this contentious? Why did this simple fact cause you guys to rear up as if you were defending ... I don't know what. But don't defend Dro. Why? Cause he was a Nazi. Simple enough. It was complicated, and not all Armenians supported the Nazi collaboration. And yes, more Armenians fought *against* the Nazis with the Soviets than fought for the Nazis, but NEVERTHELESS, ARMENIANS FOUGHT WITH THE NAZIS. Don't contest settled history, it makes you look silly, and that garbage that was copy-pasted was absurdly misleading and outright dishonest in many places. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.70.65 (talk) 19:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

whitewash attempt

So because a Jewish red army POW talks in favor of Armenians, the whole legion is whitewashed? Boy this is really a first class textbook case! Lutherian 16:57, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I neutralised this article and added two more sources, I hope it makes you happy now. Fad (ix) 18:22, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Dont you get it, because of some random event (a few Armenians helped Jews for who knows what motive) you cannot change a fact which is that the legion itself overwhelmingly collaborated with the Nazis. As if that was not enough, you even go through the lengths of taking yet another swing on Turks by portraying them in a negative light on a subject that has nothing to do with them in the first place! You dont miss an opportunity, do you? This is yet another clear example of the hate campaign that you and your pals are conducting throughout Wiki. No worries, I know how to stop it Lutherian 05:44, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

I added that material about Turkey because of your blinded hate against the Armenians and I requested you to visit your own court before ejaculating your BS on this page too. Between 300,000-500,000 Armenians were under the Soviet flag fighting against the NAZI, and it was an Armenian contingent and the only ethnic contingent in the Soviet Union that penetrated Berlin. From the source our alias Steve has forged, there was also more Azeri battalions alongside Tartars who were active, but those weren't 'relocated' for distrust in the Netherland. This article is pretty much neutral and is very well source stop playing with it. Fad (ix) 15:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Please do you expect me to take your perception of what constitutes neutral keeping in mind your track record? It seems that the jokes just get funnier by the minute! Lutherian 17:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind the Azeri Turkish and Tatar Turkish legions. There was another Turkestani Legion comprised of pretty much all Turkic volunteer groups.--Eupator 15:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

and the Armenian legion criminal thugs got their training when they were dressed as clowns in French uniform and sent to rape and pillage moselm villages in Eastern Anatolia. No wonder they joined the Nazis, it was just a natural step for them. Well lets see whats left of their legacy today? A landlocked country of poor crybabies with a view over mount Ararat which they unfortunately cannot set foot on! LOL See but not touch, how upsetting that must be! Lutherian 17:23, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

It looks like the "waterboy" has resurfaced on Wikipedia. Grow up Lutherian. The only person whining is you. :-) Hakob 22:50, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to disappoint you, but im not your darling holdwater if thats who you are alluding to!!! Lutherian 04:31, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The Armenian-Nazi collaberation is a little known fact, a topic which alot of research is now going into. The Armenian agression against the Jewish populations in the region is being surfaced, Jewish groups are recieving alot of hard facts and evidence regarding this and its a matter of time before the grisly details of these Armenian secrets are exposed.

There's no point hiding it, its not going to stay a secret however hard you try.

Regards

User:Johnstevens5

Why are Objective facts being removed by Nationalist Extremist Armenians? This is an Encyclopedia, not a Armenian Propoganda Site

I'd like the quotes I used to stop being deleted, they are fully referenced and objective.

Regards

Johnstevens5

unfortunately this topic is constantly being hijacked by armenian nationalists and their sympethizers with a bid to whitewash this murderous gang of thugs 85.0.32.97 04:53, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, very unfortunate. What's also unfortunate is that you still haven't grasped the fact that you can't just copy and paste from websites, such as this one. It's called a copyvio (copyright violation). —Khoikhoi 04:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Also see the bottom of the page from the link I provided, "Copyright © 2003-2004 Turkla.com. All Rights Reserved". —Khoikhoi 05:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

agreed, it should not be a copypaste exercise, text should be modified to avert copyright vio JorgChire 05:35, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Other Armenian Battle Groups

There are some other Armenian Legions/Battallions in history, which joined other nations' armies, to fight against Ottoman Empire:

• During Balkan Wars, Armenians had an auxiliary battle group within Bulgarian Army - Andranik_Toros_Ozanian#Balkan_Wars
• During WW I, French Army employed an Armenian Legion in Adana (Turkey) and Arara (Palestine) - [13], Sarkis_Zeitlian
• There were also Armenian volunteer units in Russian and British armies in WW I - Armenian_volunteer_units

--Gokhan 09:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Size

200,000 men is enough to outfit an entire army, not a battalion which is the size of about 600 men. There was no way there were that many Armenians who were taken prisoner, much less who volunteered to fight in the German armed forces. The 200,000 figure in the book, is as Auron states, in the text: the figure was bloated by Kanayan to impress Hitler. There were 11,000 Armenians in field battalions and 7,000 in labor battalions.

You didn't even bother rewording the text, the LEAD section is completely plagiarized from Auron's book, that's outright copyvio. --MarshallBagramyan 03:35, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Read the manual for citations; The source of the sentences are given with a full credit assigned by the reference. The correctness of the sentences are very important in this case. No one wants to add their own representation. Especially I do not want to add my own representation. You really need to calm down your attacks. Citations within the limits are not "outright copyvio" --OttomanReference 03:49, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

False attribution. Wikipedia editors didn't compose that text. I suggest you read up on what plagiarism is. If you haven't noticed, nearly all the articles on Wikipedia paraphrase, or word in their own words what's written in the text and do not copy the sources word for word (unless there's quotation marks). And please cease your accusations, it's not me who goes on one Armenian related article and raises havoc over it.--MarshallBagramyan 03:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Instead of attacking personalities, hope you learn to work within the limits of the facts. By the way, this is not a war, please drop this rhetoric of negativity. Please do not become personal, just work within the limits of the information. I wish a nice day for you. --OttomanReference 04:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

It would help if you propose your changes on the talk page, collaborate, discuss, reach a consensus and then make such drastic and expansive edits.--MarshallBagramyan 04:13, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Atabek

Atabek, your disruptions have no bounds, your edit on this page is nothing more than a wiki-retaliation. You didn't even read the talkpage, before editing the article. 200,000 is a fictive number, there are official figures on the number of batallions from each groups in the Caucasus. Bergmann 3 weitere Feldbataillone, insgesamt also 90 Feldverbande geschaffen, die sich ihrer Nationalitat nach in 26 turkestanishe, 15 azerbajdzanische, 13 georgische, 12 armenische, 9 nordkaukasische, 8 krimtatarische und 7 wolgatatarische oder wolgafinnische Feldbataillone gliederten. Die Ostlegionen 1941-1943 Turkotataren, Kaukasier und Wolgafinnen im deutschen Heer by Joachim Hoffmann, Verlag Rombach Freiburg, Germany, 1976, ISBN 3-7930-178-4 p.172

From the list, there were 26 Turksani batallions, 15 Azerbaijani batallions, 13 Georgian batallions, 12 Armenian batallions, 9 Northern Caucasian batallions, 8 Crimean Tatar batallions and 7 Volga Tatar batallions. The total figure of Armenians was hardly under 20,000 and significantly lower than Azerbaijani. This is what Alexander Dallin tells in his book (German Rule in Russia, 1941-1945 A Study of Occupation Policies Westview Press 1981) the distrust of the NAZI for the Armenians: Rosenberg himself warned that the Armenians had 'few good qualities' by comparison with their neighbors. (p.229) He also describes how Armenians were seen as traders not unlike the Jews was deep-seated in NAZI circles, and racial 'purists' along with Hitler himself were prone to look upon the Armenians as 'non-Aryans', a view fanned by Georgian chauvinists. He also said that the Armenian prisoners of war and refugees were somewhat discriminated.

Your mud slinging and wiki-retaliation will leave no doubt in anyones eyes, including the arbitrators, that your presence on Wikipedia is not in good faith. That there is one option left to stop your disruptions. If you really want to read the juicy stuff the NAZI were saying about the Armenians, I will gladly answer. It wasn't like it was the Azerbaijanis who NAZI ideologists were studying their cranium on to classify them as non-Aryan, even as Christian Jews to have a leader (in this case) Dro, convincing why prisoners from the concentration camps should be liberated. And for your information, Hitler never trusted the Christians of the Caucasus, the Georgian and Armenian batallions were later sent elsewhere where most just left (deserted). --VartanM 18:14, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but the above is whole bunch of assumption of bad faith, to which I am not going to respond. My edition of the article, actually clearly indicated that the "majority of Armenians fought against Nazis", moreover, I added several sources to the article, which you removed. I wasn't the one who created this article in first place, so your further accusations bear no ground. What does Azerbaijani Legion or Azerbaijani topic at all have to do with any of these? Are you trying to raise another conflict along national lines? Atabek 21:46, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not assuming bad faith, I am only observing it, which is different. The 200,000 figure is 10 times above the actual figures recorded in German documents. Armenian leaders were exaggerating the figures to please the Nazis. Do you want evidence of your bad faith? You used Yair Auron work here, while here you request a source, when the same book has the information you requested on Sarah Saronsohn. Perhaps if you read the talk page of this article you would've seen that MarshallBagramyan and OttomanReferance already discussed the 200,000 figure. VartanM 23:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Well the figure 200,000 comes from the book and page number that was quoted earlier (Y. Auron. The Banality of Denial: Israel and the Armenian Genocide, Transaction Publishers, p. 238, ISBN 076580834X). The same page claims 20,000 figure false. So why don't you tell us: a) is Auron reference false? If so, why do you quote on the page only your POV portion? b) is Auron reference true? If so, why do you remove the quote from the page, along with other relevant references that were added. Both you and User:MarshallBagramyan keep removing sources from articles, and then calling others' edits as "vandalism". Don't you see the ironic dichotomy here?

Please, assume good faith, and in future present your arguments about your "observations" in a relevant medium, because on this talk page, they look nothing other than a reportable personal attack. Atabek 14:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Another observation of bad faith. The same page claims 20,000 figure false. This is the third time in the last few days you misuse sources. He says 200,000 in text and not 20,000. The text being Dro Kanayan's exaggerated figures. Nowhere does he claim 200,000 being accurate. On the next page he tells: We will refer later to the claims about the validity of sources and the evidence regarding the Armenian Genocide as well as to the attitude of the Armenians regarding NAZI Germany (...'The Attutitudes of Turks and Armenians to NAZI Germany'). He later covers it on p. 261 by using Walker's 20,000 figure. And then quotes Joris Versteeg on p. 262: The number of Armenians in Germany military service during the Second World War was about 18,000: 11,000 in field battalions and 7,000 in supply and other non-combat units, according to the former director of the West German military archives J. Hoffman in his book 'Kaukasien 1942/43, Das deutsche Heer und die Orientvölker der Sovjetunian (Freibug 1991). In the section where he covers Armenian participation, he uses the 20,000 figure and not the 200,000. Given that you have checked the book, and misused the source, I can observe another bad faith edit. VartanM 15:05, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, page 238 "The Banality of Denial: Israel and the Armenian Genocide" available here:

"...came back to Europe, and created the Armenian Legion which counted 200,000 soldiers, was trained by SS officers and participated in the occupation of Crimean peninsula and the Caucasus (200,000 in the text - not 20,000 as mentioned sometimes in Turkish sources regarding the 812 Armenian batallion - Y.A.)"

I believe Y.A. above are the initials of the author of the book Yair Auron, not that of Drastamat Kananyan (D.K.) or Garegin Njdeh (G. N.). Now would you care to explain what part of this book did I misrepresent, when the quote, not attributed to anyone but Yair Auron, says "counted 200,000 soldiers". And why do you assume bad faith again, and misquote only parts of the book. This is provided the fact, that I added in my edit that majority of Armenians fought against Nazis, which to my belief was an assumption of good faith rather than attempt to disrupt the article. Atabek 15:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

You still don't get it and I'm still observing bad faith. The initials are merely there to say that the accolades are his. In written texts when we open an [(] and close them [)], is when say that it does not come from the text itself, their clarifications, or are comments the writer makes. In this case it is to clarify that he is making a comment, he says in text, he clarifies that the numbers were according to Dro, and he closes the section by writing that he will cover this participation later, which he does, and he uses Walker and the official German records in the following section, not Dro figures. Had he thought that 200,000 was the actual figure he would have used it in the section where he was covering it. This number on the following section is nowhere to be found, it is only in the section covering Dro's vision. VartanM 16:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Again you have been provided with full sentence of reference, and thanks for mentioning I added ")", which does not change the truth of the matter though. How does the statement "in text" identify with the words supposedly being said by Dro? There is nothing on that page saying 200,000 number was claimed by Dro. I will provide the link to the page again here, for reading. The only thing that Yair Auron claims is that Turkish sources said 20,000 while, the figure is 200,000. Assume good faith. Atabek 16:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you should continue reading the said book and read the pages 261-263 [14]. VartanM 16:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Only page 261 is available for preview, so I am not sure how you have read 262, 263. Can you please, provide link to all 3 pages available. It's also clear at the end of page 261 that the book starts of whether Armenians in Europe were or were not supportive of Nazis in general. And how is this text denying the figure 200,000 on page 238 or attributing it to Kananyan and Njdeh? Atabek 17:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

When checking the work on p. 236, we can see that the text isn't even from him, but he's quoting from an article by Minna Rozen. He says I would like to finish this paragraph by fully quoting the paragraphs relating to the genocide ('a massacre' in her terminology—Y.A.) and its consequences, as presented by Rosen: Then he quotes from the rest of p. 236 to 239. This is why he put his initials, to indicate that it is not part of the text. And this is why he clarified about Turkish sources, reminding that her estimates were even higher than Turkish ones. And this is also why he said that he will be covering this, which he does by providing Walker and German official figures. I hope this settles it. Now I guess we will have to remove 200,000 all together since it does not attributes it to Dro, but some quote which will be addressed later.

Here are the pages 261, 262, 263 --VartanM 00:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Pages are unavailable for viewing, only show the front page. Again, I don't see why Minna Rosen reference should not be considered just because it quotes 200,000 Armenian soldiers on Nazi side. And what does it mean "even higher than Turkish ones", is this argument somehow weight to deny the reference? Atabek 04:26, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Search the word NAZI or 20,000 and you'll find it. Minna reference is quoted not for accuracy, but as a reference to Israeli intellectuals position on the Armenian genocide. It was a simple letter written to the mayor, it was most likely mistyped, because it was not meant for a publication and was not reviewed for corrections. Before you claim this as OR, can you explain to me why would Auron contradict himself and present German archival records which provide less then 20,000 Assume good faith and read the pages 261-263. VartanM 05:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Denizz, please read the discussion above for information on why the 200,000 figure is wrong. I just don't want to repeat myself, its getting tiering. --VartanM 04:49, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I personally believe 200,000 is too huge, too, but that does not matter. The source says so, and from the note that, it appears to be that Y.A. does not think it is a typo (which was my first guess). The source is a reliable source, and due to WP:NPOV, we should not be against someone adding that statement, imo. Anyway, I would have preferred you removing only the 200,000 sentence, instead of a full revert. Deniz^T_C 18:08, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

200,000

One of my students wrote a paper last month with the 200,000 number based on this article. After looking at the source, and the source's sources*, it is clear that number is a claim by a prospective quisling at potential support, and has nothing to do with any reality.

• The source's source's source is a Turkish source with no peer reviewed publications at all, and probably one of the highly nationalist POV piece that are around the margins (from all sides) this type of discussion. Author Auron is pointing that Rozen's source is not legitimate.

Think about it, if pro-German persons, from any number of countries, assertions of potenial support to the Germans during the war were included in all such articles it would seem as if every country in the war zone had huge numbers of soliers willing to fight for the Nazis.

The source material indicates 8,000 to a potential 18,000 as the very top number.72.75.31.249 13:18, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

If Auron was pointing that Rozen source is inaccurate, what does Turkish source (unnamed) have to do with this? Actually Auron claimed 20,000 per Turkish source, while saying that Kananyan's claimed figure was 200,000. Atabek 13:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

The 200,000 figure was not from a Turkish source trying to make the Nazi collaboration of the Armenians look even worse. It was from an Armenian trying to impress Hitler. See above in talk page, also. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.5.70.65 (talk) 19:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

changes

1. got rid of 'ibid'. Please people don't use it, this is an encyclopedia anyone can edit any time; and anyone can insert a new source any time, in which case ibid's will give us false info.
2. restored a sourced section, the 'background section', which is possibly more important than other sections.
3. moved "American historian Dallin.." sentence up, and replaced anons sentence with it
4. explained Wehrmacht, so that people don't need to go other articles and stay with this article
5. added fact tags
6. moved Ost battalion to "See also"

Deniz^T_C 18:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I added reference expanding on Dro Kananyan and Garegin Njdeh's role and their claim on the size of the legion. Atabek 00:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

You should have read the talkpage before reinserting the numbers. The numbers were proved to be wrong and Auron was misquoted. VartanM 00:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

VartanM, the figure was claimed by Kananyan. That's what I put in the article, saying "claimed". Why are you removing sourced material? Atabek 13:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Reliable sources

I reverted the article because it was lacking sources. Saying that other sources disagree or say this, and not provide the said sources is called original research which is prohibited under WP:OR, if our IP friend wishes to reinsert the text he needs to provide reliable sources. oh and don't forget to sign your posts with 4 tides ~. --VartanM 20:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Changed Perspective Section to "Nazi Perspective", other proofreading edits and re-wording

I assume that's what the person who named that section was referring to with the name "perspective", since the only content of the section was a quote that tells of Hitler's opinion, or perspective, on the Nazi Armenians.

1)Other than changing the title, I pointed out that Hitler did, in fact, approve of the Armenian collaboration with the Nazis, despite whatever misgivings he may have harboured. I also took the opportunity to point out what it was about the Nazi perspective and plans that attracted the Armenians to join the Nazis. 2) I got rid of the extra </ref> that was in the source, in the intro paragraph. It was showing up when viewing the article. 3) Capitalized "legion" in "Armenian legion" in the Background section 4) Changed "...Soviet battalions; He remarked: "..." to "...Soviet battalions. He remarked, "..." 5) changed the wording in the intro re: the "new world order", making it simpler, using capitals, and making "New World Order" a link to the article on that subject

Hope my edits are well received! Regards --24.5.70.65 20:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC) Basically just little edits, but it makes it look better for sure.

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