Talk:August 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion

Requested move 1 September 2024

August 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion → Ukrainian invasion of Russia – Option B from section #Attempting to gain consensus seems to be a viable arternative --Altenmann >talk 21:41, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

• no opinion; technical nom, per mentioned section, to make the discussion more formally organized. --Altenmann >talk 21:45, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: Just looking at the above section I don't think directly proposing we move it to anything with "invasion" in the title is the best choice, as it would likely result in a "no consensus" as we seem to be split halfway between whether or not "invasion" is a good title; I don't think we need any additional RM right now, as this seems like extra bureaucratic work for little change; we should remove the "August" from the title without having to wait seven days, so for now either moving the page to "2024 Kursk Oblast incursion" or "2024 Kursk offensive" seems the best choice, as sources don't seem to give any preference to incursion, offensive, or invasion. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 21:52, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the month removal, since it is now September and the incursion is still pretty much alive and well. Procyon117 (talk) 04:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: Agree with the proposed removal of the month, but "invasion" suggests Ukraine intends permanent occupation of the territory concerned, when it seems that the incursion aims to convince Russia to pull back from Ukrainian frontlines. Culloty82 (talk) 18:23, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
• If it gets large scale, then fine, otherwise, rename to 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion or something. Dawsongfg (talk) 23:06, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose "Invasion of russia" is an extreme overaggeration of what's going on. It's literally only a portion of kursk oblast that has been attacked. This is like calling the Kargil War the "Pakistani invasion of India". I would prefer something like "Ukrainian Invasion of Kursk" or "Kursk Offensive (2024)" Hind242 (talk) 10:58, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support This name is clear, descriptive and distinctive which allows the ‘August’ to be dropped from the title. The term ‘invasion’ or ‘invaded’ is used by numerous media outlets to describe this event:

• Forbes
• Atlantic Council
• Business Insider
• Al Jazeera
• Reuters
• Sky News
• CBS News
• The New York Times
• Foreign Policy

Therefore I believe this name fits WP:COMMONNAME. I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 08:31, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

While some of those sources do call it an invasion of Russia, most are more specific and call it an invasion of Russia's Kursk region. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 12:35, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

sensationalizing an incursion to grab eyeballs is obviously a good strategy by media outlets but that must not change the crux of the matter that it's not even near as comprehensive as an invasion Nohorizonss (talk) 16:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose I think offensive is better, and has fewer political connotations. Slatersteven (talk) 10:42, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support I suggested this in the previous move discussion. This is the largest and longest invasion of Russia since Operation Barbarossa and should be recognized as such. While "incursion" and "offensive" are accurate descriptions, they don't encompass the seriousness of the situation. "Incursion" implies a brief entry into foreign territory akin to a raid, which is listed as a synonym at Merriam Webster. However, this has been going on for nearly a month now, so it's losing relevance as a descriptor. "Offensive (military)", as noted in the Wiki article, is a term that is used alongside invasion. However, I prefer invasion because it's less vague. Imagine if Wikipedia's article was titled "Russian offensive in Ukraine". How would that be different from the current Russian invasion of Ukraine article? To me, such an article would imply that there was a greater conflict that this is just one front in a larger war. But invasion invokes something similar, such as the invasion of Normandy that took place within a war (whose article name on Wikipedia is the name of the operation: Operation Overlord). For that reason, I support this current name change of "Ukrainian invasion of Russia" because of its prolific use in reliable sources. As a side note, "Kursk offensive" currently redirects to Battle of Kursk, and for that reason, I'd recommend against redirecting it to this article or renaming this article to Kursk offensive, as the Battle of Kursk is far more notable. "Ukrainian invasion of Russia" has the benefit of clearly disambiguating from that.--JasonMacker (talk) 17:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support for same reason as before. Title is clear, concise, and used in reliable sources. When I was looking for the article I myself typed in 'Ukrainian invasion of Russia' to find it and I imagine that will be a much more common query and name for this subject. Furthermore nothing about the term 'invasion' necessitates permanent territorial occupation or a negative moral valence, e.g. Western Allied invasion of Germany during World War 2. TocMan (talk) 17:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. "Invasion of Russia" overstates the size of this operation. It's not an invasion of Russia in general - the world's biggest country. It's an invasion, incursion or offensive into one small region. Most of the sources refer to Kursk, so I vote for Ukrainian invasion of Kursk or Ukrainian offensive in Kursk. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 12:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose. "2024 Kursk Oblast incursion" works fine if you don't want to include 'August'. Kalivyah (talk) 20:24, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support I used to be in the "offensive" camp but I've come around to invasion. A great many RS call it an invasion and the fact that it is now essentially an indefinitely permanent action (until land exchange or expulsion) lends weight to this being more serious than offensive (incursion is no longer valid at all imho). Furthermore Ukrainian Invasion of Russia is a good title, clear and concise, maybe 2024 Ukrainian Invasion of Russia. Finally, as far as "invasion" being biased against ukraine within the scope of the overall wars actions, even pro-ukrane RS like Kyiv Post are calling it Invasion, and prominently. Here's their lead for today https://www.kyivpost.com/analysis/38457 EDIT I perhaps misunderstood the main thrust of this debate - I support Ukranian Invasion of Kursk - the main point for me is transforming incursion to invasion, be in Ukranian Invasion of Kursk or Ukranian Invasion of Russia or even 2024 Ukranian Invasion of Kursk, just as long as incursion is gone - incursion this is not!

• Oppose; this is not a "full-scale invasion of Russia", which despite what some editors say, is what such a title implies to the average reader, that Ukraine is indeed launching a massive operation with a size comparable to that of the previous invasion; and yes, that was the previous invasion, ("in World War II") but that is irrelevant when the current Ukrainian offensive cannot be equally called an "invasion", implying based on usage in related articles a similar size or impact; sources which do use the "invasion" wording often qualify it with "of Kursk Oblast", which we should either do here or use "2024 Kursk offensive". A non-invasion title is no less "clear and concise" and is equally used by reliable sources, and calling this, without qualifying as to what part of Russia, a "Ukrainian invasion of Russia" is trying to make this something it's not. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 03:58, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. This doesn't seem like an accurate title, though removing the month makes sense. 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion is better, as it's more accurate and simply chops off one word, but even Ukrainian incursion of Kursk Oblast works (and you could potentially swap incursion for invasion or offensive, if there's consensus to do that). Essentially, I think we need to be clear and unambiguous about the extent of the incursion/invasion/offensive, and it's certainly not an invasion of the entirety of Russia. Lewisguile (talk) 13:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose in favor of Ukrainian invasion of Kursk. Scale doesn't match a Russia-wide name but "incursion" is an inappropriate word for something with this duration. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support, clear title and the WP:COMMONNAME used by RS. Most of the opposition to the proposed title comes from claims that "Ukrainian invasion of Russia" implies it being a larger-scale operation than it is, but I don't see how that is the case: it is completely normal for invasions to only cover a small amount of the invaded country. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 23:55, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as it would be like giving it as a new event, different from the war in Ukraine. --Robertiki (talk) 19:04, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. That would sound like Ukraine is attacking Russia from multiple directions, as the incursion is happening in a single oblast. In my opinion, I think "Ukrainian invasion of Kursk Oblast or the more simple 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion will work fine. 🛧Midori No Sora♪🛪 ( ☁＝☁＝✈) 20:03, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

• Support It's not merely an incursion, which implies a minor scrap or occupation of borderlands, there are actual settlements that are under the administration now of Ukraine, with the people of those towns now under the administration of Ukrainian operatives. Idk why people play politics with these things, you call other instances similar to this where the side invading takes settlements in another country an invasion, but somehow there is no issue with it seeming too "strong", no complains about "neutral terms". It just seems like the "good guys" do "incursions", while the "bad guys" do "invasions". You want to follow that logic ok fine, but then don't go around pretending Wikipedia articles are nonpartisan and objective. Midgetman433 (talk) 20:32, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

  That (referring to the viewpoint that calling it an incursion makes the article biased in favor of Ukraine) is definitely one possible way of seeing it. Another possible way of seeing things is that calling it an invasion gives Ukraine too much credit (makes it seem like they are gaining lots of territory overall) when they are actually still losing ground within Ukraine. You could argue either way, that calling it an incursion rather than an invasion or calling it an invasion rather than an incursion, could be biased towards Ukraine. Obviously, it is not possible to completely eliminate all possibility bias and make it completely non-existent, but it is definitely Wikipedia's policy to maintain a neutral point of view. Anonymous Libertarian (talk) 00:49, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

  I agree there is questions of bias in terms of invasion vs incursion, but within the scope of the english definition of incursion this is not - incursion implies small unit tactics, a battalion at most within a limited time frame, a "heavy raid." This articles scope refers to invasion or at least offensive, given RS tend to lean toward invasion over offensive so should we imho. 2605:A601:5553:B000:648F:C4B:5C87:77E2 (talk) 13:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: Rather than changing the article title entirely, I think it would be much better to just drop the month of it and have it be "2024 Kursk Oblast Incursion". Then, if it is still ongoing in 2025, we could then change the title again to be 2024-2025. Militants fighting for Ukraine have already crossed the border into Russia, just that this time around it is the actual formal Ukrainian army doing it (and with a relatively larger amount of land). Not only might calling it an invasion potentially give it too much importance, it is usually better to preserve the existing article title as much as possible, that way people can still just as easily find the article even if they are remembering the old article title and using that to search for the article. Anonymous Libertarian (talk) 00:41, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose "invasion of Russia" which implies a much wider operation at the scale of the country, but support "invasion of Kursk Oblast" or "Kursk Oblast offensive" as the scale has grown beyond a simple incursion. Having "Kursk Oblast" in the title would be the best in my opinion, as the operation turned out to be very much localized in that oblast, with only minor incursions in nearby oblasts. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose invasion of Russia is not the common name and the current tile (absent August) is more concise and descriptive of this particular event. Yeoutie (talk) 01:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Can this be closed already? Most want to rename it to 2024 Kursk offensive as its called in numerous news articles not to Ukrainian Invasion of Russia nor to 2024 Western Russia incursion. So stop wasting time to stop the inevitable.

Also remove Belgorod Oblast from Location in the info box. That's from a related event not part of the offensive. Otherwise you'd have to add Bryansk Oblast and Lipetsk Oblast as well.

~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 13:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Do you really think offensive is the consensus? I'm no editor, but a rough eyeballing of what we got leans toward something along the lines of "Ukrainian Invasion of Kursk" 2605:A601:5553:B000:99E0:F808:5D74:CD76 (talk) 16:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose As funny as this title is, I think 2024 Kursk incursion would be a better title. --Chicken4War (talk) 11:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Support Per TocMan. If it's an invasion, it's an invasion, although it would probably better to rename it to Kursk Invasion to avoid perennial title change requests. Miffedpenguin (talk) 00:23, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. It's hilarious to call a local incursion an "invasion". Let just the "August" part be dropped as suggested by a lot of others here. GreatLeader1945 ^TALK 08:38, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
• Prefer 2024 Kursk offensive as a neutral name similar to Saar Offensive and others. 🐔 Chicdat  ^{Bawk to me!} 13:36, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I really don’t get the scale argument mentioned by some users above, who are opposing the move, stating that this attack can’t be described as an invasion of Russia because it is only happening in a single oblast (in this case Kursk oblast) or it implies a much wider operation at the scale of the country. With that logic, it is practically impossible for smaller countries – for example Azerbaijan and Latvia – to (hypothetically speaking of course) invade Russia since these countries only border one Russian oblast.

It's not an invasion of Russia in general. How would one single country be able to pull that off? It sounds geographically impossible considering, as this user mentioned afterwards, that Russia is the largest country in the world by area.

That would sound like [country] is attacking Russia from multiple directions. Continuing from the previous point, there is no country in the world that would be able to do this on its own. Simply because of the size of Russia as a country and the fact that no country borders Russia both in the west, south and east. I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 15:45, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

To get even more pendantic, technically defined an incursion is a type of invasion, characterized by a short time frame (this is definitionally not an incursion). 2605:A601:5553:B000:5C1:A896:3DC9:FD7 (talk) 18:23, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

That you can't understand the difference between the terms "incursion" and "invasion" (and the latter is ALWAYS used to denote a massive, full-scale wide-front attack and entry into a country), is your problem. Probably even if Ukraine occupied a single km2 of Russia at the border, you'd also want to call it an invasion, but that's not how things are IRL. GreatLeader1945 ^TALK 19:44, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

maybe they want to spread someone's propaganda ig Nohorizonss (talk) 19:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose It would honestly be hilarious to call it an invasion, It would seem like Ukraine has started a new war on Russia from the entire border which is not the fact as it's simply a local incursion into Kursk oblast, furthermore i also oppose the term offensive* as Saar Offensive was started by France as an offensive against Nazi Germany in response to the invasion of Poland while the incursion is a broader part of a defensive strategy by Ukraine against Russia to regain her territorial integrity! Nohorizonss (talk) 16:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

  It was* nonetheless an offensive, even if that's offensive to you.

  (*Past tense because it has been halted since mid of August and now the western flank at Snagost has collapsed.)

  ~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 16:59, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Update of Russian Counteroffensive

Major General Apti Alaudinov, the commander of the Chechen Akhmat special forces deployed in Kursk, told Russian state news agency Tass on Wednesday that the situation was "good," adding that Russian troops had "gone on the offensive" along the "right flank" in Kursk.

A total of 10 settlements have been recaptured by Russia since Tuesday, Alaudinov said. Separately, Alaudinov reshared a Russian military blogger statement on his Telegram channel on Wednesday, which described a "breakthrough" in Kursk that drove Ukrainian forces from "nearly a dozen villages."

"A prominent Russian military blogger said early on Wednesday that Russian forces were advancing in several settlements, including Apanasovka and Byakhovo, south of Korenevo. Another military blogger said Russia had seized control of Snagost, a village south of Korenevo, and a handful of settlements including Byakhovo."

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-kursk-counteroffensive-ukraine-1951986 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:5553:B000:997E:FEE8:2E06:3215 (talk) 14:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Lol GreatLeader1945 ^TALK 13:59, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Ukrainian casualties: Russian claim

According to the Russian MOD the Ukrainian forces lost 12,200 servicemen in Kursk as of 11th September 2024: "Kiev lost some 7,000 troops in Sudzha district of Kursk Region — commander". TASS.

~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 12:40, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The ministry did not provide evidence for the claim and casualty figures are frequently manipulated by both sides to accentuate the opponent’s losses - Russia launches counterattacks to retake Kursk after incursion stalls (cnbc.com) ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:20, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Zelenskyy's claim of 6k Russian casualties is baseless, too. Nonetheless it, together with the old Russian claim, is still present in the infobox.

~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 16:18, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Remove both then. Vehicles and prisoners numbers may stay. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:20, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Almost the exact same discussion was had previous month which you were apart of: here. Adding these Sources while attributing them to Russia or Ukraine directly seems to be fine. Alex.Wajoe (talk) 17:52, 12 September 2024 (UTC)