Talk:Ave Maria ... virgo serena

Title of this article

I propose changing the title to "Ave Maria ... Virgo serena", as this is the title by which the work is usually known, and Josquin wrote at least one other Ave Maria. --Stfg (talk) 16:12, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Other Ave Maria ... virgo serenas

I am aware of at least two other Ave Maria ... virgo serena settings, with entirely different texts (one by Mouton and another by Regis). I know this article currently pertains only to Josquin's, but I think these others could be worth mentioning as well. 98.115.103.26 (talk) 16:45, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 8 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 01:18, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

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Ave Maria ... Virgo serena → Ave Maria ... virgo serena – The article is inconsistent about the capitalization of "Virgo". The cited sources and the quoted lyrics and most other sources seem to use lowercase. Note that "serena" is lowercase in the title, so it isn't following the English MOS:CT convention. The language is Latin. The title is arguably an WP:INCIPIT. Ngrams here seem to show the proposed form as the most common. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:31, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment – Given that the title isn't really an incipit, I'm not sure whether the title should be "Ave Maria ... virgo serena" or (in line with MOS:TITLECAPS and WP:NCSONG) "Ave Maria ... Virgo Serena". While it isn't an English-language title, The Chicago Manual of Style (the most significant influence behind Wikipedia's MOS) provides this guidance on the title of Latin works:

  11.6 Capitalization of titles from other languages. For titles of works from other languages, whether these appear in text, notes, or bibliographies, Chicago recommends a simple rule: capitalize only the words that would be capitalized in normal prose—the first word of the title and subtitle and all proper nouns or any term that would be capitalized under the conventions of the original language. That is, use sentence style (see 8.158). This rule applies equally to titles using the Latin alphabet and to transliterated titles. For examples, see 14.98. For special considerations related to German capitalization, see 11.39. For variations in French, see 11.27.

  ...

  11.54 Latin capitalization—titles of works. Titles of ancient and medieval Latin works should usually be capitalized in sentence style—that is, only the first word in the title and subtitle, proper nouns, and proper adjectives are capitalized (see 8.158).

  De bello Gallico        De viris illustribus        Cur Deus homo?

  Renaissance and modern works or works in English with Latin titles, on the other hand, can usually be capitalized headline-style (see 8.159). (If there is any doubt about the era to which the title belongs, opt for sentence style.)

  Novum Organum        Religio Medici

  See also 11.6.

As this is a Renaissance work, might the capitalized style be more suitable? Graham (talk) 17:43, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support Per comment by Graham11 and MOS:FOREIGNTITLE and ngram evidence. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:13, 8 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cinderella157: I wonder if you may have misunderstood my comment. I'm not sure what my position is here, but I am wondering aloud whether the title should be Ave Maria ... Virgo Serena (while being inclined against the existing title). Graham (talk) 01:11, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Graham11, you have pointed to the guidance from CMOS, which is consistent with MOS:FOREIGNTITLE, in that foreign titles (including Latin) use sentence case rather than title case for titles in a foreign language. I did initially miss the last bit from the CMOS. However, while it is a work from the Renaissance, it is written in Latin, not English. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:30, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@Cinderella157: Sorry, I probably should have been a bit more specific in my musings. But regarding that sentence from CMOS, I don't read it as solely apply to works in English. It's referring both to (a) Renaissance and modern works and (b) works in English with Latin titles.

Regarding MOS:FOREIGNTITLE, which part of the guideline are you referring to? Graham (talk) 01:38, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Graham11, I was too hasty reading CMOS twice. MOS:FOREIGNTITLE: For historical works, follow the dominant usage in modern, English-language, reliable sources. We don't necessarily impose English title case onto a title in another language that will usually use sentence case, though we will use title case for the translated title. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:47, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment – Regarding the Google Books ngram, the results don't appear to be quite as inclusive conclusive when we just consider the capitalization of the word Virgo. See ngram comparing the capitalization of the word Virgo. Graham (talk) 05:16, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  So lowercase "virgo serena" is more common than the total usage of "Virgo serena" and "Virgo Serena", right? —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 05:25, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

  More common, but I'm not sure that it's so much so as to provide conclusive evidence for the lowercase form being that much more common. (And sorry, I accidentally used the word inclusive when I meant conclusive.) Graham (talk) 05:46, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.