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Talk:Aviation in the New York metropolitan area

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Latest comment: 5 years ago by Oknazevad in topic Lehigh Valley International Airport
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Latest comment: 16 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Requested move

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Latest comment: 11 years ago14 comments8 people in discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 17:50, 14 February 2013 (UTC) (non-admin closure)Reply

Aviation in the Port of New York and New Jersey → Aviation in the New York metropolitan area – A far better name. "Port of New York and New Jersey" refers to the body of water with seaports, and is unlikely to be used in reference to airports, especially when some of the airports referred to in the article are nowhere near that body of water. It would also bring this article in line with the main article on the metro area at New York metropolitan area and similar articles such as List of airports in the Los Angeles area. The current article was formed from a recent, AFD endorsed merger between Aviation in New York City and List of airports in the New York City area; at that AfD there was endorsement for the use of the term "New York metropolitan area".

I attempted to boldly move it, but was reverted by an inappropriate cut-and-paste move, meaning that regardless of the title of the article, administrator assistance is needed to repair the edit history, which is now messed up. oknazevad (talk) 14:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

To accurately describe the AFD process which is misrepresented above: The article for deletion nomination for List of airports in the New York City area considered it be cruft. Subsequent debate rejected suggestions for Airports in New York metropolitan area. This was likely unbeknownst to the above editor who boldly moved it to the rejected name. (Both those titles correctly redirect to this article.) The decision was to merge to Aviation in New York City, a title which inadequately covers the subject covered in it, namely the airports in the Port of New York and New Jersey and those operated by the PANYNJ. This was noted in the AFD. To further clarify the misleading commentary, there is no body of water called the Port of NY/NJ in the port district which is busiest port of entry and first in tonnage for air freight in the USA. In the 10 days since the merge there have been more than 2800 views and several edits w/o a question of title, which would indicate a consensus for it. Four other languages have included the article using the title. Transportation in New York City, a widely viewed article, has long organised the airport material under the header Port infrastructure.Djflem (talk) 08:24, 24 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
No less than four users recommended the use of "New York metropolitan area", many recommended leaving it at "in New York City", only you endorsed "Port of New York and New Jersey", a term that is exceedingly uncommonly used in relation to the airports. Just because the full name the agency that runs the major airports is the "Port Authority of New York and New Jersey" does not mean such an uncommon term should be in the title, especially when this article also covers non-Port Authority airports as Long Island MacAuthur, Westchester and Trenton-Mercer. This is not simply the article for Port Authority airports, but the general overview article for all airports in the New York City metropolitan area, and the title should reflect that. oknazevad (talk) 15:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
But that's just it, this article does cover the non-Port Authority airports. It does spend more time on th as they are the major ones for the metro area, and the sections on the minor airports needs beefing up, but this is the article on aviation in the metro area; there is no other article of the sort. It's title should make that clear. oknazevad (talk) 21:26, 25 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Support. We should have a metropolitan air article; there's little need for a PA airports article. Yes, the metropolitan article will be dominated by the airports of the dominant operator; no problem. And yes, this was very much the kind of change that ought not be bold. I propose any move a few days in advance, even when it's for small reasons clearly specified in policy documents such as capitalization. Jim.henderson (talk) 12:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
Oppose: The Port of New York and New Jersey is a defined core geographical area served by three major airports that is the biggest international port of entry for passengers and freight flights in the USA. It is unclear what scope an article entitled "metro area" could add to this one. A mention of outlying airports is in relation to delays, capacity, and potential expansion beyond the port district. Their is no other substantive content nor need there be. Adding "operated" by PANYNJ unnecessarily wordy since the article is about the aviation and not only airports in the port and not the agency Djflem (talk) 21:57, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Reply
  • Support. It appears Djflem is misunderstanding and misusing the term Port of New York and New Jersey over a wide range of articles ever since he created the article Port of New York and New Jersey. The term is not as widespread or encompassing as he makes it appear to be. This article was at Aviation in New York City until Djflem moved it 3 weeks ago, but the proposal for "metropolitam area" makes sense. In any case a cut and paste move is definitely not the right way to do things and must be fixed with a histmerge. 69.95.62.206 (talk) 00:44, 8 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
The Port of New York and New Jersey as defined area has existed since 1921 and the airports within it operated by port authority since 1948. That is long before this wikipedia article, the scope of which covers aviation encompassed within that district and is merge of a list of an vague undefined area (instead of being deleted as cruft) and Aviation in New York, the later an incorrect title considering that Newark and Teteboro are not in NYC. That 69.95.62.206 chooses a narrow personal definition of the port and makes claims based on that doesn't change the fact that the airports in the port district create the largest air freight and passenger flight market in the USA. References in the article support the statistics/info about that market, not the obscure one suggested.Djflem (talk) 07:10, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
Two thoughts: firstly, that Stewart Airport is now run by the Port Authority, but is well outside the original Port Authority radius. Indeed, that's all the term is: where the Port Authority was given authority when it was formed. It's arbitrary and doesn't reflect anything about people's settlement patterns or where the airports that people who live in the New York metro area (which definitively has definition as the CMSA) actually use are actually located; Westchester Airport isn't a Port Authority facility, but is far more centrally located and is most certainly used by poetess in metro area's core. So why shouldn't the article covering aviation for the New York metro area do more than just give it a passing mention? Which leads to my other thought. The merge discussion established that this is the article for an overview for all New York area aviation. Indeed pretty much all those that those supporting a merge did not intend for a such a limited scope for this article, being that, again, only you claimed that it should be under this name. Everyone supported said to use something along the lines of the proposed title to reflect that scope. So why do you insist on not following that consensus? oknazevad (talk) 15:18, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
It is not useful to claim to know know other people's intention or what was otherwise established (which was that suggested title was scrapped) and is a misrepresentation of POV as fact. All borders, such as Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA), Combined Statistical Area (CSA)., and urbanized areas, are arbitrary, and often overlapping. Those of the port district were created to facilitate commerce and the transportation of goods and people, which in the 21st century significantly includes airports. Aviation in New York City covered the three major commercial airports at the core of port district. The nearly identical article/list, instead of deletion was merged to it. There was no significant coverage of Westchester in either. Essex County, a general aviation airport, was deleted by another editor. The scope of article as it now stands deals with the core airports, PANYNJ faciliites, and those commercial airports which function as relievers and future potential for dispersal of flights. There is potential for further expansion, but think it unwieldy and unnecessary to go into detail about the 20 or so within the district or the numerous others in the broader NY-NJ-CT-PA, area which are listed by state, and appropriately linked. Djflem (talk) 17:48, 9 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
  • Support insofar as I imagine that "New York metropolitan area" describes for those (many) folk not familiar with the scope of "Port of New York and New Jersey" what those folk familiar with the scope of "Port of New York and New Jersey" have in mind. (So to speak.) CsDix (talk) 18:17, 12 February 2013 (UTC)Reply
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lehigh Valley International Airport

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Latest comment: 5 years ago8 comments3 people in discussion

The Lehigh Valley International Airport merits inclusion due to its inclusion in the NYC Consolidated Statistical Area and draw from NW New Jersey. Heff01 (talk) 01:55, 15 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

It's weak at best; I'd like to see some evidence of it specifically being used as an alternate to the main airports like MacArthur and Westchester befor including it. oknazevad (talk) 02:01, 15 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

MacArthur and Westchester are no more 'main airports' than LVI is and they serve eastern suburbs of NYC while LVI serves some western suburbs. LVI is on track to total almost a million passengers this year after a major slump just a few years ago. Allegiant Air markets its flights to/from the airport as serving eastern PA and northern NJ. When planes planning to land at one of the three major NYC metro airports must be diverted, LVI is a not-uncommon choice. While it is true that Lehigh, Northampton, and New Haven Counties traditionally were not thought of as part of NYC's metro region, people have migrated outwards and some continue to commute to jobs closer to or in NYC while living distantly. New Haven was added to the Combined SA in 2003 and the Lehigh Valley was added in 2013. Both airports merit inclusion and LVI does more so at this time. I see a real future for Tweed New Haven once the runway extension is done. Meanwhile, the Aviation in the Philadelphia metropolitan area page includes Reading and Atlantic City, both of which traditionally were not thought of as part of Philadelphia's metro region (only in its DMA). If CSA inclusion is sufficient for inclusion on that page, it should be for this one too. Heff01 (talk) 09:26, 24 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

Also, this page is included in WikiProject Pennsylvania. In the 2010 census over seven percent of the state's population lived in the five counties currently in the CSA. LVI also draws from Warren and Hunterdon Counties. Heff01 (talk) 11:17, 24 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

Below give consideration to 'outlying' airports and their context in the metro market (including figures as to how many passengers choose them over the 3 majors:
  • Zupan, Jeffrey M.; Brone, Richard E.; Lee, Matthew H. (January 2011), Upgrading to World Class The Future of the New York Region's Airports (PDF), Regional Plan Association, archived from the original (PDF) on September 24, 2015
  • "FAA Regional Air Service Demand Study Summary Report". Federal Aviation Authority. May 2007.
Both also refer to Tweed New Haven Airport & Lehigh Valley as regional diversion airports, which might constititute a separate section in this article and not just in the delays subsection.Djflem (talk) 22:07, 24 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

This entire discussion runs into a many-fold problem. Firstly, that the combined statistical area as currently defined is very broad, and includes areas that historically have been considered either separate metro areas (like the Lehigh Valley) or part of another major city's metro area, like Trenton, which was also considered part of the Philly area. And that's the other aspect of the problem: in the northeast corridor, the end of one metro area and the beginning of another is fuzzy at best with lots of overlap. As noted, Warren and Hunterdon counties in New Jersey have ties to both NYC and the Lehigh Valley. When I worked in Hunterdon county I had colleagues who lived in both directions students whose one parent commuted to NYC and while the other worked in Allentown. Extreme (1.25 hour +) commuting became a thing for a bit there.

Drawing passengers shouldn't really be a guide, anyway, as people in those transitional areas will go to which ever airport gives them the best price; there are people in Central Jersey that go to Philadelphia International instead of Newark. That doesn't make PHI a New York area airport. And diversions are by their nature non-standard operations. It's a diversion. It's not the regular intended destination. New York-bound planes also get diverted to Boston. Doesn't make Logan a New York airport. That's a red herring.

Regardless of that, however, there is objective standards for which airport is linked to which city, based on FAA and other regulatory definitions. For example, the customs offices at LVI and Trenton are both satellite offices of the Philly office. (See here). I got that reference from the list of cities with more than one airport, by the way. It doesn't list LVI, Tweed or Trenton. I increasingly think that is the best way to go. Keep it to the airports in the MSA, not CSA, as the CSA includes areas that are less New York connected and more New York adjacent. oknazevad (talk) 15:39, 25 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

PS, the FAA study that Djflem linked puts LVI, Trenton (and Atlantic City, which we haven't mentioned at all) as part of a section on the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission. The Deleware Valley is the Philly metro area. Again, people in the New York area, especially the southern and western suburbs, aren't adverse to going to the next metro area for a flight, especially considering the congestion at the three main airports. But that doesn't make them New York area airports. oknazevad (talk) 15:55, 25 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

PPS: So far we've focused on originating passengers. But airports are also destinations. Can anyone show that people are flying into Lehigh Valley or Tweed New Haven to get to New York City? Because that's just as important. oknazevad (talk) 16:11, 25 September 2019 (UTC)Reply

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