Talk:Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change (2005 conference)

Edit reversion of changes to hatnote

@NewsAndEventsGuy: you reverted my edit, but I don't understand your edit summary "not useful. If you feel such notes need to be memorialized for editors use invisible inline comments". The previous hatnote says "This article is about the conference. For the concept of avoiding climate change, see Climate change mitigation. For the international treaty committing nations to work to avoid dangerous climate change, see UNFCCC." My (shorter) version says ""Avoiding dangerous climate change" redirects here. For the wider concept, see Climate change mitigation." Bearing in mind WP:ONESHORTHAT I asked myself: "Why would anyone come to "Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change (2005 conference)" but really wanting "Climate change mitigation": answer — because "Avoiding dangerous climate change" redirects here; so the hatnote should say so. Similarly, "Why would anyone come to "Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change (2005 conference)" wanting "UNFCC"? Answer – they probably wouldn't, but it's mentioned in the 2nd sentence of the lead. Please explain your reversion further. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 10:12, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Actually I think you're right after all. I've been a climate editor for a long time and there were some debates here and I seem to think at another venue about this one's scope. I think I reverted to a legacy hatnote that served a purpose, but that purpose has been supplanted by the parenthetical disambig added to the article title. So please put it the way you think best, as my reasoning may be stale and outdated. Thanks for a polite inquiry and I apologize for getting in the way during my lonnnnng wikibreak. I had just stopped by to see messages and got sucked in a bit. You know how that is....NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:59, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

@NewsAndEventsGuy: Thanks, and best wishes. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:56, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

"Stabilization of greenhouse gases" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Stabilization of greenhouse gases. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 10:26, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

"550 ppm" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect 550 ppm. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 10:32, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

"550ppm" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect 550ppm. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 10:32, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 15 April 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move buidhe 16:17, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

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Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change (2005 conference) → Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change – Given the all-caps and non-neutral title, there is very little risk that the reader would confuse this for an article on the scientific topic of climate change rather than a proper noun. Hence disambiguation in unnecessary. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 15:36, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

@King of Hearts:By prior consensus, the scope of this article is the 2005 conference. Are you proposing we change the scope of the article? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:03, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

• Opposed and Different First there is prior consensus that this article is about a conference. I don't care what we call this so long as the title makes the scope clear that its about the conference. Second, Avoiding dangerous climate change presently redirects here, but it should be retargeted to the main treatment of that subject. Avoiding dangerous climate change is the primary purpose of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, and the main treatment of this key part of the treaty is at United_Nations_Framework_Convention_on_Climate_Change#Interpreting_article_2. "Avoiding dangerous climate change" should point there, not here.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:02, 15 April 2020 (UTC)
• Support - The general concept of climate change adaptation and mitigation is a different thing than what people are probably expecting when they search "Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change" given, as stated above, the capitalization and particular language. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 05:04, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

@CoffeeWithMarkets:By prior consensus, the scope of this article is the 2005 conference. Are you proposing we change the scope of the article? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:03, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose NewsAndEventsGuy's points seem very fair to me. The suggested retargeting of the redirect also seems fair. The 2016 discussion seems reasonable. Jlevi (talk) 11:37, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
• oppose: per NAEG: this article is about the conference. If you want an article on the topic, then create a different one William M. Connolley (talk) 12:43, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

  My point is that the title is so unsuitable for an actual article per WP:NPOV that the conference is the primary topic here. "Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change" seems like a very strange term to search for if you're just looking for an article on climate change. Anyways, if you are interested in a result please participate in Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 April 19#Dangerous global warming as the results of the two discussions are interdependent. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 13:00, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

  Why is there any NPOV problem with the title? It is a perfect description of the article / conference William M. Connolley (talk) 13:21, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

  Yes, it is a perfect title for the conference only. No one would ever expect to find an actual article on climate change at the title. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 13:59, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

  Then either you've got confused (by coming here from the redirect) or I am. If there's no NPOV problem with the article or title as it currently stands, why did you ever mention it? William M. Connolley (talk) 16:21, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

  "Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change" is an acceptable title for the conference because it is the actual name of the conference. It is not an acceptable title for a scientific article on climate change because it is not neutral as a descriptive title. Hence the only topic that "Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change" could realistically refer to is the conference, and the "(2005 conference)" disambiguator is therefore unnecessary per WP:PRECISE and WP:CONCISE. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 17:46, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

  False and dead wrong. There is indeed another "topic that 'Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change' could realistically refer to" and I already articulated it in my prior comment. Since you must not really be reading replies I will repeat it for you again. 'Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change' is the primary purpose of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change, and the redirect should point to the main discussio of this at United_Nations_Framework_Convention_on_Climate_Change#Interpreting_article_2. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 03:05, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

  The original text of Article 2 talks about "stabilization of greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere at a level that would prevent dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate system". Nowhere does it use the exact text "Avoiding Dangerous Climate Change". When I google the term I see results for the conference, some books/papers with that titles, some sentences using it literally (in lowercase) in a sentence, but nothing identifying it as a catchphrase of the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. If you have any sources showing that is the case, I'd be happy to be proven wrong. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:15, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Since I'm not formally pushing for a retarget I'm not bothering to do research to defend my opinion on that. I remain opposed to this proposal for another reason - the current title serves a purpose. You claim that it can't reasonably mean anything other than the conference, however, I've been watching this article for years. Prior to adding disambiguation there was a regular experience of editors working to turn this article into discussion of the concept. And those efforts were always duplicative and sometimes POVFORKing of our other climate pages. Much time and effort was spent. Finally, with agreement that this was about the conference, we added that disambig to the title. And guess what? All those problems went away. So it doesn't really matter if the conference is the "only topic (the phrase) could realistically refer to" as you say. The fact is, many editors have, over time, taken the phrase to mean something other than the conference. Which is fine, and is already discussed across our other climate pages. With disambing in place, editors are working on those concepts at the appropriate pages instead of duplicating those efforts here.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 11:46, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.