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Talk:Avret Pazarları

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Latest comment: 2 years ago8 comments1 person in discussion
  • Hamed-Troyansky, Vladimir. Empire of Refugees: North Caucasian Muslims and the Late Ottoman State. United States, Stanford University Press, 2024.
  • Jankowiak M. (2021) Tracing the Saqaliba: Slave Trade and the Archaeology of the Slavic Lands in the Tenth Century. In: Biermann F., Jankowiak M. (eds) The Archaeology of Slavery in Early Medieval Northern Europe. Themes in Contemporary Archaeology. Springer, Cham. https://doi.org/10.1007/978-3-030-73291-2_12


  • Kravets, M., & Ostapchuk, V. (2021). "Chapter 8 Cossacks as Captive-Takers in the Ottoman Black Sea Region and Unfreedom in the Northern Countries". In Slavery in the Black Sea Region, c.900–1900. Leiden, The Netherlands: Brill. doi: https://doi.org/10.1163/9789004470897_010
  • Conversion to Islam in the Premodern Age: A Sourcebook. United States, University of California Press, 2020.

N Królikowska-Jedlinska - Slaves and Slave Agency in the …, 2020 - books.google.com Pages 355-369

Witzenrath, Christoph, et al. Slaves and Slave Agency in the Ottoman Empire. Germany, V&R Unipress, 2020.
  • https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/214179666.pdf
  • Cossacks#Ukrainian Cossacks → Zaporozhian Sich
  • In (Ottoman) Turkish word 'avret' was used more for common married or adult women, where as word hatun was used for more respected women.[1] In ottoman times any unmarried adolescent girl was called kiz and her silence was assumed as consent for marriage purposes but they were mobility wise freer and less controlled un till marriage but once married and considered Avret their mobility and sexuality came under drastic social control so as they would not engage in adultery to preserve male right of linage and patriarchal honor.[1] In modern Turkish since twentieth century use of word avret got limited to intimate body parts.[1]
  • Etymology : Persian word Pazar means Market



Bookku (talk) 12:46, 16 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia discussion points

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Turkish reference points

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  • Bilal Ali Kotil (2022) Extraterritorial slaves: late Ottoman paternalism and the international debate on slavery, The International History Review, DOI: 10.1080/07075332.2022.2118806
Childhood in the Late Ottoman Empire and After, 2016 - library.oapen.org

Prof Dr Stephan Conermann , Dr. Gül Şen Published Online:May 2020https://doi.org/10.14220/9783737010375

  • Flemming, Barbara. Essays on Turkish Literature and History. Netherlands, Brill, 2017.
  • A Bibliography of East European Travel Writing on Europe. Hungary, Central European University Press, 2008.
  • Des Turcs: Trait ́e sur les moeurs, les coutumes et la perfidie des Turcs → French translation by Joel Schnapp
  • The Heritage of Edirne in Ottoman and Turkish Times: Continuities, Disruptions and Reconnections. Germany, De Gruyter, 2019.

Tracy, James D.. Balkan Wars: Habsburg Croatia, Ottoman Bosnia, and Venetian Dalmatia, 1499–1617. United States, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2016.

Circassian reference points

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Jew Ref point

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Crimean khannate ref point

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Western reference points

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Bookku (talk) 12:05, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Greek

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Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 09:31, 18 November 2021 (UTC)Reply


  • Wagner, Veruschka, et al. Slaves and Slave Agency in the Ottoman Empire. Germany, V&R Unipress, 2020.
  • German travel account of Salomon Schweigger

Bookku (talk) 11:07, 30 January 2021 (UTC)Reply

Old sources

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Circassian history for further reading

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Afro Turk reference points

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Bookku (talk) 07:02, 27 May 2021 (UTC)Reply

Swedish points of reference

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East European reference points

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Bulgarian reference points

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Slavery Comparisons

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  • Ali, Kecia. Marriage and Slavery in Early Islam. United Kingdom, Harvard University Press, 2010. archive .org
  • malakat amraha

Bookku (talk) 11:46, 29 May 2021 (UTC)Reply

Russian ref points

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Hungarian ref points

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Syrian reference points

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Bookku (talk) 07:06, 28 May 2021 (UTC)Reply

Armenian reference points

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Bookku, 'Encyclopedias = expanding information & knowledge' (talk) 12:00, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ a b c Zilfi, Madeline C. (1997). Women in the Ottoman Empire: Middle Eastern Women in the Early Modern Era. BRILL. ISBN 978-90-04-10804-2.

Requesting article expansion support

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Latest comment: 4 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

@GPinkerton:

Hello once again, I am looking for some help in article expansion support.

Please do have a look at the newly initiated article Draft:Avret Pazary about historical plight of women slaves.

Please do join in article expansion if the topic interests you. You can try / bring in different sources, besides following source too is still to be adequately tapped

Davis, Robert C. (2009-07-01). Holy War and Human Bondage: Tales of Christian-Muslim Slavery in the Early-Modern Mediterranean:. ABC-CLIO. ISBN 978-0-313-06540-8.

Thanks and warm regards

Bookku (talk) 05:42, 13 October 2020 (UTC)Reply

Title

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Latest comment: 3 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

I think the title should be in english, otherwise the article cannot be easily found with search.--Skylax30 (talk) 20:45, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

@ User:Skylax30 Thanks for your contribution to the article. As far as article title is concerned while I do acknowledge English Wikipedia tradition on an average is to translate article title where possible in to English language. But I am not sure about grammar part of it, Whether Avret Esir Pazarları would constitute as proper name / proper noun and whether proper nouns can be translated.

The second part is there is not much concern in translating words Esir Pazarları to Slave Bazar or market, but word 'avret' constitutes some unfortunate religio cultural baggage enforced by pre 20th century Muslim world on largely non Muslim slave women. Though largely denigrated and even not original to Non Muslim female slaves but word Avret brings a baggage of an (unfortunate) identity. Actually I had started an article Aurat on English Wikipedia and that unfortunately got deleted but would have helped understanding cultural nuances still there is one Draft:Aurats (word) in development stage and besides may be this research paper on Muslim world concept of Umm walad will give an idea about Muslim world's sexual politics involved behind word Avret, and I am alone can not be sure of such a change. Particularly Muslim women are largely absent from Wikipedia world and story of deletion of article Aurat shows once one lets it go that wiki community does not easily restores. Any ways here my purpose is just to explain little nuances but I am not too insistent about retaining the title as is.

Last but not least, I was curious about if any Greek sources do exist and one more thing is references regarding slavery in al Andalus also seem to become available whether slavery in al Andalus times should be added to this article itself or it should have it's own article, What is your opinion.

Thanks Bookku (talk) 10:47, 7 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

There are several greek sources on ottoman slave markets, as Greeks where victims of slavery, espcecially during the revolution of 1821. I will add few paragraphs and possibly some traditional folk songs. I suppose the topic is the marketing of slave women in Ott. emp. and not slavery in general. Sources on slave markets in Arab Spain are very limited, as far as I know, but enough to support another article.--Skylax30 (talk) 21:29, 7 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

@ User:Skylax30 As you said if reflections in traditional folk songs is available then that will be significant.

I will check if Wikipedia already has any article on Arab Spain slave trade if not, the I will write a draft.

Many thanks for your contribution to the article specially about Greek sources and reflection. Bookku (talk) 03:14, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Folk songs

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Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

You might want to add in the article a section with traditional folk songs mentioning slavery, even if the subject of the article is the slave market. It shows how some women started (and how some didn't) their route to the slave markets.

The oldest collection of Greek folk songs was that by Claude Fauriel, compiled and published in 1824-25, during the Greek Revolution. In this collection there are some songs mentioning Greeks slaves of the Turks, or the possibility of one becoming a slave and fighting to avoid it. These songs refer to pre-revolution events, mainly the wars of Souli against Ali Pasha of Jannina and Albanian Muslims. Despo, the wife of Souliote chieftain Tzavellas, is one of the heroines of the songs, committing a honor suicide with other women before they all get captives and slaves. In: C. Fauriel, Chants populaires de la Grèce modern, vol. 1, pp 302, “Guerres de Soulotes, 8”, (in greek), p. 303 (French translation). “you are slave of the Pasha, captive(*) of the Albanians” [(*)“captive” is not a literal translation here. The Gr. σκλάβα means “slave (woman)”. “Albanians” means the Muslim Albanians]. See also Souliotic songs.

On the same song and the theme of women’s suicide in order to avoid slavery: Ewa Róża Janion, “„ŻONA CAWELI MĘŻNIE GRODU BRONI...” [Τzavellas’ wife is fighing …”, in VADE NOBISCUM, MATERIAŁY STUDENCKIEGO KOŁA NAUKOWEGO HISTORYKÓW UNIWERSYTETU ŁÓDZKIEGO VOL. X, UNIVERSITY OF LODZ, Poland, ŁÓDŹ 2014, pp. 47-54.

Machine translation Polish to English, with some corrections: p. 49, top. <It's men’s traditional duty to protect women and kill the enemy, but when they fail and the fight is lost, women are forced to do everything possible to make the differences between the two hostile groups. […] Thus, only taking a fight is going beyond the traditional female role. Also here the Greek and Philhellelic repertoire presents 2 types of heroines. The first is suicide fighting, Despo [Tzavellas’ wife], who defends the fortress with her daughters. When further defense stood impossible, Despo set fire to the gunpowder storage: as a result both defenders and aggressors were killed by the explosion.[6] The transgression of gender boundaries is here neutralized by the heroine's death. As with Polish women knights, famous from the works of Adam Mickiewicz: Emilia Plater, Grażyna, Żywila, which die after the takeover male role [7].> [footnote 6 refers to the song of Despo Tzavellas]

On the same song, English publication, partial preview: Constantinides, Elizabeth. "Andreiomeni: The Female Warrior in Greek Folk Songs." Journal of Modern Greek Studies, vol. 1 no. 1, 1983, p. 63-72. Project MUSE, doi:10.1353/mgs.2010.0076. On the honor suicide of Despo: “O come, my children, come with me, We shall not live as slaves of Turks." She touched the powder with the torch — Engulfing flames consumed them all.”

Another song, about two Greek boys, slaves of a Turkish woman, who is asking them to convert to Islam, in: Fauriel vol.2, (1825), p. (pdf) 70 (in Greek), and p. 71 in French “Les deux esclaves …”

Α folk song about a man slave, in [https://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/00/09/85/37/00001/greekfolksongsfr00garn.pdf Greek folk-songs, by Garnett, Lucy M.J. London, 1885, p. 206 (pdf 244)], in English translation. In the same, p. 219, men and women taken slaves to Yannina (the headquarters of Ali Pasha before 1822) and Tepeleni (in Albania). Originally published by Passow. Page 243 (pdf 281). A young man says farewell to his mother, going to be a “Klepht” (irregular fighter), not wanting “to Turks enslaved”. There are more folk songs in other collections, but I think these are OK for the moment. --Skylax30 (talk) 19:36, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Title (2nd discussion)

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Latest comment: 1 year ago1 comment1 person in discussion

@Skylax30 @Aciram @Immanuelle requesting your inputs for change in title according to the coverage of the article.


Some suggestions:

  • Marketing of Non-elite-commoner-women-slave in Ottoman Empire.
  • Non-elite-commoner-women slavery in Ottoman times
  • Non-elite-commoner-female slavery in Ottoman times

Please remember some other WP article already covers Elite--women slavery in Ottoman Empire and this article focuses on the status and marketing of Non-elite-commoner-women-slave in Ottoman Empire.


Bookku (talk) 06:48, 2 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

Article section that has no references

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Coverage of slavery in modern Turkish textbooks

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See also: Turkish textbook controversies

According to Avarogullari Ayten and Muhammet, slavery in Turkish and Islamic history is mostly omitted or condoned in Turkish school textbooks.[citation needed] Contents in the history and social studies school textbooks in Turkey contain substantial non inclusion and misrepresentations related to pre modern slavery in Turkey and Islam.[citation needed]

Avarogullaris see some patterns in the way slavery is dealt with in Turkish school textbooks. First, slavery as an issue that occurred mainly in the West; While institutionalized western slavery are rightly criticized in Turkish textbook. But avoids any mention of the existence of slaves in the Islamic world and how Muslims got their own slaves, especially in the Ottoman past of Turks and their actual treatment on the ground. Such omission creates the impression that there was no slavery in the Turkish past, or slaves in Turkish history were very happy.[citation needed]

Turkish textbooks cherry-pick while depicting wherever and whenever Turks were taken into slavery but go silent on their own Turkish past which was proactively participated in enslavement and trade of slaves.[citation needed]

While Turkish textbooks take note of role of European Human Rights Convention and Universal Declaration of Human Rights in abolishing slavery but miss on human elements that strived for the goal, which happened to be some proactive westerners.[citation needed]

Turkish textbooks create perception that only African black people were enslaved but factually largest number of slaves traded and used in premodern Turkey were Russians than Africans since Ottomans had frequent wars with Russians were taken as war prisoners where as they had to pay to buy African slaves from traders still prices for White slaves were more and Women slaves were more than male slaves, male slaves were most frequently castrated.[citation needed]

  • According to Sak (1992, p. 218) a report giving details of ethnic origin of slaves used in Turkey based on court records of six provinces of Ottoman Empire, in percentage[citation needed]
  • Russian 20.12%, Black 11.47%, Georgian 8.48%, Persian 4.26%, Hungarian 2.29%, Cherkes 1.85%, Abyssinian 1.67%, Romanian (Eflaki and Bogdani in the original text) 1.54%, Polish 1.5%, Muscovite 1.06%, Serfi (?) 0.62%, Serb-Croat 0.52%,[citation needed]
  • Abkhazian 0.4%, European (Efrenci in the original text) 0.35%, Austrian 0.31%, Armenian 0.21%, Greek 0.18%, Tuti (?) 0.13%,[citation needed]
  • Albanian 0.04%, Barbary 0.04%, Bosnian 0.04%, Frank 0.04%, Morean (Greeks from Morea or Peloponnese) 0.04%,[citation needed]

While Turkish text books talk of human rights, depict enslavement as inhuman but only western slavery is singled out for the purpose in a negative role. Avarogullaris say that treatment of past slavery in Turkish textbooks produces falsely prejudiced generations which end up believing that slavery was only a western phenomena unaware of phenomena of slavery in Turkish and Islamic past. According to Avarogullaris instead of hiding Turkish and Islamic past of human slavery, Turkish textbooks should have helped pupil face it and help them understand how slavery in Turkey was abolished peacefully.[citation needed]

Avarogullaris say that Turkish authors of textbooks probably too focused on social and national identity creation, perceive factual knowledge of historical facts as threat, which might have led them to omit or distort the Turkish and Islamic past with regard to slavery, instead providing inaccurate and incomplete information.[citation needed] Avarogullaris say that one of the reasons for teaching history is to develop students to be active citizens of pluralistic and democratic societies, and they are expected to respond with appropriate moral dimension historical events hence omission of facts about contemporary and historical slavery from Turkish school curriculum is cause of concern.[citation needed]

Gradual abolition of slavery in Ottoman Turkey

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While textbooks are quick in criticizing the west for it's part in slavery but fail to give due credit to western societies for their initiative in the abolition of slavery. Actual fact that it was proactive British diplomatic pressure in nineteenth century and Ottoman rulers need to maintain its positive image lead to eventual gradual abolishing of slavery from Ottoman Empire by end of nineteenth century.[citation needed]

Even after several measures to ban slavery in the late 19th century, the practice continued largely unabated into the early 20th century. As late as 1908, female slaves were still sold in the Ottoman Empire.[1] Sexual slavery was a central part of the Ottoman slave system throughout the history of the institution.[2][3]

Turkish textbooks paint an incorrect picture that it was Islam that banned slavery. Factually, Islam never banned slavery but rather permitted the continued capturing and trading of slaves, albeit with some encouragement for better treatment to slaves and encouragement to manumission; however, but that does not amount to complete abolition of slavery, but Turkish textbooks tell the students otherwise.[citation needed]

Contemporary female trafficking in Turkey

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Main article: Human trafficking in Turkey

According to IMO (International Migration Office), 2005, Turkey, Trafficking &Trends, IOM Publication, Turkey continues to be one of the largest markets in the trafficking of women from neighboring former Soviet states who have been forced into prostitution. 2004 profits from the illegal sex trade in Turkey were estimated to the tune of $3.6 billion. Approximately 5,000 women, large percentage from Moldova and Ukraine, were believed to be working as sex slaves in Turkey. The prostitution networks make about $150 per customer, with each woman serving up to 15 clients a day.[4][5]

References

  1. ^ Eric Dursteler (2006). Venetians in Constantinople: Nation, Identity, and Coexistence in the Early Modern Mediterranean. JHU Press. p. 72. ISBN 978-0-8018-8324-8.
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference Schierbrand1886 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Madeline C. Zilfi Women and slavery in the late Ottoman Empire Cambridge University Press, 2010
  4. ^ "2005 Turkey trafficking and trends" (PDF). www.countertrafficking.org. Retrieved 2021-05-31.
  5. ^ Turkey: Country gender profile S Sancar1, A Bulut2 - Directory of Women Studies Center, Ankara University, December 2006 1 PROF. DR. SERPİL SANCAR Director of Women Studies Center, Ankara University 2 AYÇA BULUT Phd. Political Sciences Department, Ankara University

todo

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Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments2 people in discussion

@Ipigott

You seem to have removed todo template. I just moved Talk:Avret Esir Pazarları/to do from Draft talk namespace. May be you can consider including that back if you find okay enough. Thanks for your support. Bookku (talk) 12:10, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

Bookku: I removed it because the list contained a number of duplicates, at least one wikiproject which is no longer active, calls for reassessment when there had been no previous assessment, etc. Now that the article is in article space, it is important for the talk page to be presentable. I also thought it was better to have all wikiprojects displayed so that those not yet carrying assessments could attract potential assessors. I would also suggest that it may be more useful to reduce the list of wikiprojects to those which are of most significance to the article, but that is up to you. You are of course welcome to edit the talk page as you wish. If I have time, I'll try to go through the article for copy editing.--Ipigott (talk) 12:24, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Ipigott Thanks for your valuable inputs.
At draft stage my see also and project listings are long since I try to catch up with users active in related articles and projects. I have removed duplicates. Idk in detail about MOS project listing for talk pages I shall leave it for others to take care about the same. As and when you get the time pl. help out the article copy edit and other wise in content much more scope is available for updating.
Bookku (talk) 12:56, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Bookku: I've copy-edited the lead but I'll leave it there as the article is still under development. At over 70,000 B, it is far too long and would benefit from sections being moved to separate articles.--Ipigott (talk) 17:07, 3 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Do suggest, As such I prefer any likely content transfer possibilities after c/e in this article itself so that shall help judgement on what to keep and what to transfer better IMO. Bookku (talk) 05:10, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

About this change

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Latest comment: 1 year ago7 comments3 people in discussion

@Ipigott

In dif 1137252572 Though your c/e change ".. selling a slave woman to another man for sex was permissible .." not incorrect in 'what it means' as such but sounds too direct compared to the source. Then kind of buyer preferences for female slaves there in those times no doubt indicate the way you have written. IMO there are eulogizing historiographers might contest such direct inference. The source author in the reference used here is referring to blurred lines. So may be a visit to original source will help in our consideration.

Actually I wanted to add relevant quotes in all refs before bringing to main space some how some other user got impatient and submitted to AFC yesterday.

  • Earlier sentence ".. While technically using female slaves for prostitution was illegal, the lines were blurred since the selling of a slave woman to another man who could use her for satisfying his own sexuality was permissible and a lawful practice, and slave women would have no agency over their own sexuality and bodies.
  • Changed to ".. While using female slaves for prostitution was technically illegal, selling a slave woman to another man for sex was permissible and slave women had no legal protection over their sexuality. .."

Bookku (talk) 05:05, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply

Bookku: The previous version of the sentence was not identified as a quote. If you believe it is necessary to include it as a quote, you can do so in the body of the article or in the form of a note. The purpose of the lead section is to give a clear overview of the article. For it to be accessible to normal readers, complicated structures and formulations need to be rewritten. For example, "technically using female slaves", is simply not correct. I have therefore tried to convey the intended meaning. I'm sorry you are unhappy with the result. I should add that reproducing text from a book is a breach of copyright and is not allowed unless it is presented as a quotation, with full attribution to the author, etc. Including a reference to the source is not sufficient. If there are other such instances in which the text is too close to that of the original author, they should be reformulated in your own words. Otherwise there is a risk that passages will be deleted as violations of copyright.--Ipigott (talk) 07:14, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
IMO myself and my writing in this article too reasonably graduated through copyright issues copy edits help further. What I was saying At times sources are not easily available for verification, our (WP) Ref has facility to provide quotes of the content from where respective content is sourced. That I have not utilized. Hence to see what is written reflects the source properly or not one will need to visit source itself. Bookku (talk) 08:19, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
One imp thing it's not about me not liking. It's about my concern that some other quarters not liking. Since what you have phrased is simple and strait but not necessarily ' politically correct enough'. So then we will need to show an one objecting that we are reflecting the source properly. Bookku (talk) 08:38, 4 February 2023 (UTC)Reply
Ref reconfirmation Page 205 Zilfi Bookku (talk) 04:30, 11 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

re-paraphrasing

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  • Earlier sentence ".. While technically using female slaves for prostitution was illegal, the lines were blurred since the selling of a slave woman to another man who could use her for satisfying his own sexuality was permissible and a lawful practice, and slave women would have no agency over their own sexuality and bodies.
  • Changed to ".. While using female slaves for prostitution was technically illegal, selling a slave woman to another man for sex was permissible and slave women had no legal protection over their sexuality. .."

Bookku (talk) 05:09, 11 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

Hi @Bookku: How goes it? I will take a look at it today. Thanks for coming in. scope_creepTalk 11:08, 11 March 2023 (UTC)Reply

The ref for discussion reference

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The ref for discussion reference [1]

  • Kate Fleet says the visibility of female slaves was always meant to be fluid, since she would quickly move from one level of visibility to another, from being a protected possession to an exposed commodity without any choice over the levels to which they could be displayed to public gaze, could be handled naked by customers in the slave market, or from household servant to prostitute at the whim of their owners.

References

  1. ^ Zilfi, Madeline (2010-03-22). "Feminizing slavery". Women and Slavery in the Late Ottoman Empire: The Design of Difference. Cambridge University Press. p. 205. ISBN 978-0-521-51583-2. .. Female slaves .. were legally vulnerable to involuntary sexual use. .. Their second disadvantage as sexual beings were uniquely theirs .. from moment of capture were legally subject to the disposition of male captors... (p.p.197-198)..female slaves were personal property of their master's. Unlike males, however, every female slave of whatever age or provenance by whatever label, was also her master's sexual property. Women had no right of refusal or appeal with regard to their sexuality, although the law forbade owners to use women for outright prostitution. The notional, if not the legal, line between prostitution and the selling of female slave to another male, who might sale her to yet another was whisper thin. ..p205

Article name change

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Latest comment: 1 year ago13 comments4 people in discussion

Hi @Ost316: How goes it. You have changed the name of this Avret Pazarları, which is "private markets" when it used to be Avret Esir Pazarları, meaning Awret Captive Markets or the private markets in the Awret quarter of instanbul. It seems a bit odd? scope_creepTalk 07:33, 12 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Scope creep, Just a while ago I raised title change issue @ t/p of Ost316. Please take a small note here in Ottoman Turkish, word 'Avret' denoted 'non-elite women'. You can read the article Aurat (word) for more info about linguistics of the word.
Btw I shall repeat some part of which I stated on t/p of Ost316.
".. Though the draft was mostly written by me and some work still remaining, some one else pushed it in mainspace. So the copy editors not having topic background seem to end up in inadvertent misunderstanding ending up in introducing unexpected edits.
As such I was looking for title change of the article (then draft) on lines of it's short description "Non-elite-commoner-women slavery in Ottoman times" (- that is how my later focus became while writing the draft as I came across reliable sources). I would request your suggestions for alternate article title suitable to short description.
Problem with shortened title 'Avret Pazarları' is there is one more women's market in Istanbul without slaves resembling this shorter 'Avret Pazarları'. Until we come up with other alternate title I would prefer to continue with 'Avret Esir Pazarları' rather than 'Avret Pazarları', if you do not mind. .." Bookku (talk) 07:54, 12 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Bookku: Yes, I agree with that. I think it is too generic a title. I never realised that it was yourself that wrote most of it or I would have pinged you. I'm happy there is another editor who understands the issue. I guess we can wait and see what Ost316 says. If its changed, it might need the lede changed slightly. I don't know if that would be needing done. scope_creepTalk 08:04, 12 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Bookku: I never realised it was myself that promoted out of draft. scope_creepTalk 08:08, 12 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
Since draft was well researched and almost ready there was nothing wrong in accepting by you as reviewer, but being draft writer I knew I had changed course of article from just 'Female slave market in Istanbul' to wider scope "Non-elite-commoner-women slavery in Ottoman times". So present lead need to go in Female slave market section and broader lead needs to be re-written on basis of article body. Besides I had to add quotes within refs for verification and for benefit of copy-editors- since lot of refs are taken with help of Wikipedia library.
Collapsing non-crucial part for discussion in hand
That work was remaining hence I was slow in bringing in main space myself, but some one requesting AfC reviews was some how in hurry may be they too did not realize why I was delaying bringing apparently good draft to main space. Any ways.

Bookku (talk) 09:09, 12 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

@Bookku: Could you do that? They we can look at get the title changed to something thats more accurate. scope_creepTalk 12:16, 12 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
For what it's worth, I think a new title is a good idea, and don't have strong opinions on the correct one. The original title was not used throughout the article or even the lead, so it seemed incorrect, though I apologize if the one I chose one that was too generic. —Ost (talk) 08:25, 13 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Ipigott, ‎Request for inputs Bookku (talk) 08:38, 13 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, Bookku, I'm no expert on Turkish --Ipigott (talk) 11:04, 13 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
Hi @Bookku: Have you managed to update the lede, or is it even needed? scope_creepTalk 21:25, 14 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Scope creep Presently part of the lede looks like main body text and not summary of the article body.
As such I just updated lede with following brief summary para, to represent -literary reflections- Second half part of the article.
".. While Turkish television drama usually tend to ignore non-elite-commoner-women slavery and focuses more on privileged female slavery in elite Ottoman homes; where as descriptions of Ottoman times non-elite-commoner-women slavery are found in some of the then contemporary slave narrative accounts, traveler's accounts, folk songs, late ottoman times Turkish novels, twentieth century poems. .." Bookku (talk) 09:45, 15 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Bookku: I think the lede is probably too long now. scope_creepTalk 09:48, 15 August 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Scope creep Presently part of the lede looks like main body text and not summary of the article body.
As such I just updated lede with following brief summary para, to represent -literary reflections- Second half part of the article.
".. While Turkish television drama usually tend to ignore non-elite-commoner-women slavery and focuses more on privileged female slavery in elite Ottoman homes; where as descriptions of Ottoman times non-elite-commoner-women slavery are found in some of the then contemporary slave narrative accounts, traveler's accounts, folk songs, late ottoman times Turkish novels, twentieth century poems. .."
Bookku (talk) 09:56, 15 August 2023 (UTC)Reply


References

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Latest comment: 1 year ago2 comments1 person in discussion

@Bookku: I fixed ref 15 as it had a works error on it. Is that same as ref 16 with the same chapter? They look almost identical. I plan to update ref 56 which looks a bit knackered. scope_creepTalk 10:06, 15 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

Ref 56 fixed. Now only ref 16 to look at. scope_creepTalk 10:22, 15 August 2023 (UTC)Reply

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Latest comment: 9 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Though article is reasonably researched with academic WP:RS - still considerable update was remaining; as of the day, I suppose, most users and copy editors (including those with Turkey or middle eastern background) are unlikely to have in-depth context of "Non-elite-female-slavery in Ottoman times", which is main focus of this article topic, and also most users and copy editors do not open referred literature. Hence being significant contributor to the article, I am aware many sentences need to be updated or provided with specific quotes along with page numbers to avoid doubts. So I am not surprised some sentences have been tagged. Since I bit busy in real life, it will take some weeks to fulfill/ address tag requests, and I plan to address them one by one at a time. Bookku (talk) 11:03, 25 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

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