Talk:Börringe Priory

Castle/Palace

There's very limited coverage of this in English but the sources I have found call this a castle. It's certainly not a palace and nothing calls it that. Gugrak (talk) 19:23, 4 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Per every known reliable definition and Wikipedia's own articles, this building is not a castle, but a palace. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 12:19, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

By Wikipedia's own definition it is not. And Wikipedia is not a source anyway Gugrak (talk) 14:53, 5 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

Just weighing in here - isn't a priory a thing all of its own? Neither a castle nor a palace, something like a secluded place for monks to live in AtFirstLight (talk) 06:36, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

It is, but this appears to have been built on the site of the priory and is not the priory itself Gugrak (talk) 07:20, 6 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

3O Response: <your response> Jborgzz (talk) 15:36, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

I am sorry that your kind attempt to help us through 3O is being treated contemptuously. You are right of course, as addressing the issue. It's hard to find good faith or any constructive intent in the statement that it's certainly not a palace. SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:13, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

The meaning of "castle" in English is somewhat open to interpretation. To most native English speakers, at least those in the United States such as this author, a castle is a fortified building ordinarily constructed of stone, the purposes of which are to demonstrate political influence and assert the force of state in a given area especially in the medieval era. A mere "building," on the other hand, is a broad term. A building can describe the Great Pyramid of Giza or any structure that provides basic shelter or enclosure from the elements. As applied to the Börringe Priory, it seems possible that the complex once hosted a castle in the common meaning of the term, but such information is missing from the English version of the article. It's similarly possible that a "castle" once existed, but was destroyed to build the current priory. Perhaps a source linked in the Swedish version of the article would provide more background that could make an objectively correct determination. I conclude that, unless the two can agree whether a "castle" (as defined above) ever existed on the site, then the term "complex" should be used instead of building. "Building complex" is already used in the article, but the word "building" is a bit redundant when "complex" more accurately describes the site as a collection of buildings surrounding a main structure, as opposed to a single freestanding building. Jborgzz (talk) 15:36, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

That's a masterpiece of WP:SYNTH. There are sources in English referring to it as a castle. There aren't any referring to it as a palace, or a building complex. Unless those can be shown then it should remain as castle here. Gugrak (talk) 17:29, 5 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

The shorter OED defines castle as a fortified building, and this was never fortified according to the sources. In the UK it would be a Mansion, but on the continent "château" is the appropriate word. Springnuts (talk) 12:21, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

why would we use French for something in Sweden?Gugrak (talk) 13:47, 6 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

We don't need to source that it is what it is - WP:BLUESKY will apply. So we 'just' need to find the English term for what it is. We cannot call it a castle because it isn't a castle (not my belief, but that of the the Oxford English Dictionary). So - and actually better than château - how about "mansion house". OED definition "A large or stately residence". That seems to fit. If sufficient English sources call it a castle then you could argue for a chage of title to Börringe Castle - see WP:CRITERIA - but note from WP:COMMONNAME that "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources". Best wishes, Springnuts (talk) 14:15, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

It's not a bluesky issue. There are plenty of examples of English usage of castle to describe exactly this sort of building.

Merriam Webster gives a definition that includes "a massive or imposing house" I think in fact the OED does have something similar as well, though I don't have access to that right now.

We have at least one source that calls it a castle. We don't have sources that call it any of the other options proposed. Gugrak (talk) 15:35, 6 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

One Swedish source has the very common error in translating slott as "castle", very common because slott is used indiscriminately in Swedish for castles as well as palaces, though the building types differ. The error manifests itself all over English written by Swedes. Stockholm Palace is often called "the Royal Castle" by casual-translate Stockholmers, resulting in a lot of head scratching by tourists looking at the building. I do not find it reasonable that this building should be called a castle. It isn't. One Swedish translation error does not clear common name. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:48, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Castle is a perfectly reasonable term for this building in English though, both by definition and usage. There are many buildings of this sort in the UK named as Suchandsuch Castle. It's the only term that's got a source for a translation. Gugrak (talk) 16:57, 6 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

It's very obviously not a castle. It's a stately home (which redirects to English country house), or a mansion, or a palace. I agree with the commentators above that sources referring to this as a castle are most likely mistranslations; I would be interested to review them, to establish whether any of them are reliable scholarly sources in the field of architecture/architectural history, or if they are just travel guides that are following whatever marketing material the current owners are churning out. Yes, there are buildings in the UK with similar names, but that is usually because they have replaced fortified buildings on the same spot and kept the original names (just like this did when it was known as Börringe Priory). Girth Summit _(blether) 17:29, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I think there are two different conversations here. What is called ( and how that's translated), and what it is. If we look at this list there's an overwhelming preponderance for translating 'slott' as castle in the name. There's an a very wide variation in how those buildings are then functionally described as- castle, manor, house, mansion, house, chateau. But the translated name remains castle in general. Palace is reserved for Royal, Ducal and Bishops residences of which this is none. Gugrak (talk) 18:17, 6 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

That list (referred to above) was created by an editor who used the common translation error I've described. It's an excellent (erroneous) example. The article has a talk page where I've addressed the error. I moved it long ago from "List of castles in Sweden" to its current name. Needs a lot of work. I had intended to get around to it someday, but looks like a very unpleasant task now. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:09, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, the first sentence of the lead calls it a castle (I don't mean the name, I mean it says '...is a castle...'). That is, I believe, an error. As for the name, I don't think this building has a WP:COMMONNAME in the English language - there are too few sources referring to it to establish that. We should probably just use the Swedish name, thereby avoiding the translation issue. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:22, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. Probably for all of them on that list! Gugrak (talk) 18:32, 6 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

There's probably sonething somewhere in the MOS about this, but I don't have a handy link. Certainly, there's no problem with using foreign language names for places (Angkor Wat, Haghia Sophia...) when there isn't a widely used English name. I would support changing the name to whatever the Swedish one is, and changing the description to 'is a mansion' (or some other word - don't particularly care what, but not castle). FWIW, I wrote our (featured) article on Cullen House - I think I just described it as 'a large house'. Girth Summit _(blether) 18:42, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

“Stately home” is entirely appropriate. I don’t think “large house” quite covers enough linguistic ground; and I believe “palace” covers a little too much. Springnuts (talk) 18:56, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't particularly care about which word we use (provided it's not castle, or aardvark), but 'large house' is the typical way of describing buildings of this kind in architectural guidebooks like the Pevsner series. It is neutral, factually accurate, and avoids all the semantic concerns about palace/mansion/stately home/chateau... Girth Summit _(blether) 19:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

What have you got against aardvarks?

I don't want to seem unreasonable - I'm prepared to consider arguments in favour of calling it an aardvark. I stand firm against castle though. Girth Summit _(blether) 19:41, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

I’m rapidly losing the will to live here. Aardvark? Given the extraordinary amount of electronic ink being spilt, I’d live with “large house”. Springnuts (talk) 08:09, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

It was a joke - I was trying to inject a bit of levity. I'm really saying that calling it a castle is silly. I don't genuinely think that it's less more silly than calling it an aardvark. Girth Summit _(blether) 16:38, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I didn’t mind the Aardvark comment at all. Might we ask @Gugrak @AtFirstLight @Jborgzz @SergeWoodzing - would “large house” be acceptable to you? Springnuts (talk) 20:03, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

I really don't think there's a problem with castle as a translation, but if it must change I'd propose something like the following then, taking into account the page is named after the Priory and that content makes up the bulk of the article. In that respect we should adjust the lead para anyway.

Börringe Priory (Swedish: Börringekloster) was a medieval Benedictine priory founded in 1150 at Svedala in Scania, Sweden. Secularized in 1536 the site was developed as a manor house. The present aardvark large house, known as Börringeklosters slott, was built on the site in 1763. Gugrak (talk) 11:29, 8 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

OK by me. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:14, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I know I'm just complicating things here, but manor house has a specific meaning, related to the feudal system. Unless that meaning is what is intended here, it's a phrase I would avoid, and would suggest a few tweaks to the second sentent: "Secularized in 1536, the site was developed as a home for the Brahe family. The large house now standing on the site, known as Börringeklosters slott, was built in 1763." Girth Summit _(blether) 13:35, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I thought I'd read somewhere that the old castle on the site was fortified. But it may have been in one of my Wilipedia-related nightmares.

Suggestion: Börringe Priory (Swedish: Börringekloster) was a medieval Benedictine priory founded in 1150 at Svedala in Scania, Sweden. Secularized in 1536, the site was developed as a home for the Brahe family. The large present building, known as Börringeklosters slott, was built here in 1763.

The most bizarre part of this is that the article here is 4-5 times bigger that the Swedish article, about place that is virtually unknown even in Sweden. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:17, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm happy with this suggestion. Interestingly, dewiki is much better than enwiki for obscure Scottish historic buildings. (I've been doing what I can to fix that.) I wonder if it's just people writing about that interesting building they visited in their holiday, rather than the one they see every day around the corner. Girth Summit _(blether) 17:26, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

I've made the edit to this version with one minor change to fix order force.Gugrak (talk) 17:41, 8 May 2023 (UTC) Blocked sock. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)

@everyone, thank you! Springnuts (talk) 18:54, 8 May 2023 (UTC)