Talk:Bücker Bü 131 Jungmann

Jungmann

Some sources for Jungmann:

• langenscheidt Maskulinum, youngster, young man, recruit in first year of service
• deepl young man
• systran young man
• dwds junger mann, jüngling, juvenis, adolescens, item opifex junior
• Frühneuhochdeutsches Wörterbuch (FWB) junger mensch, jugendlicher
• woerterbuchnetz young man

Aside from the meaning of young man that showed up in every dictionary that had an entry (with a history that substantially predates any Nazi connotations), I found a single reference to it being a langenscheidt military rank (recruit in first year of service), as well as a single reference to a naval rank, (between cabin boy and midshipman) from which the military rank was likely derived from, and that it was used as a family name. All of the above links are valid references to the existing entry you desperately want deleted.

So, that leaves whether its use was even connected with the Nazi rank, or with the previous, widely held definition - and that would likely take a book on the aircraft type - or the company with an explicit mention of that connection. Notice that many of the above sources I provided are in German. None of my English-German dictionaries even have the word listed which implies it is not common in current use, so it is entirely possible that from that time to now, the word has changed meanings or dropped from use precisely because of the Nazi connotations that you are obsessing about, however that would not necessarily be true at that time, and we are not interested in the current use of the word, but as it was then.

The founder of Bücker served in the German Navy during the first world war, so would have been familiar with the naval usage, even if that too was no longer current, which makes it far more likely than him using a Nazi rank. There is also a chronology problem, since the aircraft first flew in April 1934, however while the Nazis had been using the Mann ranks from 1925, they only added the Jungmann rank in the mid-1930s (haven't found the exact date though), so it probably didn't even exist as a Nazi rank when Bücker applied the name to his aircraft. - NiD.29 (talk) 18:48, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

• The above post is very selective when it comes to sources (see this now deleted discussion on NiD.29's talkpage for an extensive discussion): the definitive source for the meaning of German words, "Wörterbuch der deutschen Sprache", states that "Jungmann" means "junges männliches Mitglied einer Gemeinschaft, Gruppe", i.e. "a young male member of an organisation/community/group", while most of NidD.29's sources above either give approximate synonyms in German or approximate translations into English, synonyms and translations that in no case give the full meaning of the word "Jungmann". And if we can't provide our reader's with an exact translation into English, complete with all nuances, we shouldn't provide any translation at all... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 16:31, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

• Seriously? So now it is cherry picking? Is there a logical fallacy you won't stoop to? What is the problem with the rank? Navy guy names intro trainer after intro naval rank. Far more probable than a Nazi rank that didn't exist until after the aircraft was named. - NiD.29 (talk) 16:54, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
• Aircraft Profile 222, Bücker Bü 131 Jungmann (already listed as a reference here) gives a definition as "Young man or Freshman". Is there ANY argument that contradicts you that you would ever accept? Just curious because it seems that you are simply in denial. - NiD.29 (talk) 17:13, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

• How about

- A: being civil? (telling me to "shut the f*** up" on your talk page was a bit over the top...)

- B: taking a deep breath, doing something else for a while and giving others a chance to express their opinion here?

- Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 17:25, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

Mostly because all you could come up with was straw men arguments. Absolutely nothing of substance, and you seemed VERY determined to misunderstand or ignore everything I said, up to and including putting words in my mouth I never said, and implying that I was using the translations incorrectly (I never used spaces or capitals).

Additionally, my comments on there needing to be something (and not just a bare "Jungmann") were completely ignored, and indeed, followed up by similar vandalism on the other Bücker pages, as well as blanket reversals of any attempt to fix the damage.

Okay, so back to the name. From the multitude of dictionary sources, the word is analogous to freshman (ie a first year person), which either derived from young man, or evolved into young man. Which came first isn't a major concern though as both meanings seem to have been in use by the early 1930s. It was used by the Navy as a rank for a junior sailor of similar experience, and from this it was taken up by the SS - however this final use, which I gather is the source of the contention, most likely happened after the Bü 131 was named so is an unlikely definition to be applicable, and therefore does not need to be included. It would seem the word now has a loaded meaning in current slang, which hasn't been picked up by the dictionaries, and would seem to be the source of the contention. However, we are not interested in current meanings, but rather those that were in use at the time, which would leave us primarily with Freshman/young man, which are supported both by the contemporary dictionary entries and the reference in the profile book, which from the list of contributors, would seem to have been checked with native German-language speakers at the time. - NiD.29 (talk) 21:12, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Last German biplane ?

The article currently contains the following statement "Bü 131A was the last biplane built in Germany", which is cited - however this appears to omit the limted production of the Bücker Bü 133 Jungmeister in the late 1960s–early 1970s on behalf of the American Jack Canary, with 4 new-built aircraft by Hirth from 1968–1969 - see Air-Britain Archive 2017, No. 4, "The Bücker Bü.133 Jungmeister" pp. 146–158. In addition there is the B&F Fk131 Bücker Jungmann miniature replica of the Jungmann built 2013–2017.Nigel Ish (talk) 21:58, 1 November 2022 (UTC)