Talk:Close-mid back unrounded vowel

On Estonian õ

I'm afraid the sound sample sounds nothing like the vowel, at least in Estonian. - 217.159.163.237 12:14, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, Estonian õ is a central vowel, this one here a back vowel. Nonetheless, no central vowel linked in the graph sounds similar to Estonian õ. And, errraneously, Estonian wiki also uses symbol [ɤ] for letter õ. --Constanz - Talk 10:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

It appears to be a convention in Estonian linguistics to use [ɤ] for the Estonian mid-central "õ" sound, contrary to the IPA standard - apparently because there isn't any other appropriate symbol for the sound. This should be checked upon. PeepP 21:33, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Appearantly, these conventions have mislead linguists of other nations: [Estonian] does not allow mid back unrounded [ ] in non-initial syllables..[1] thus they do think õ is [ɤ].--Constanz - Talk 07:48, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

If Estonian <õ> really is a mid central unrounded vowel rather than a mid back unrounded vowel, then its symbol ought to be [ɘ] rather than [ɤ]. Nevertheless it is extremely common for linguists focusing on a particular language to use conventional symbols in away not entirely consistent with their canonical IPA values. Russian <ы> is customarily transcribed as [ɨ] although it's far enough back to be [ɯ]. The Eastern American English "thought" vowel is customarily transcribed as [ɔ] even though it's low enough to be [ɒ]. Ideal IPA practice is quite different from what real-life linguists actually do, and always has been. (I don't think I've ever seen [ɘ] used in any phonology or phonetics article I've ever read, only in IPA charts.) User:Angr 19:57, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, does anyone have the Finno-Ugric Transcription for Estonian? That system seems to have more vowel contrasts than IPA. On the other hand I can confirm hearing <õ> as high up as [ɯ] in some cases, though I'd buy the [ɘ] for unstressed positions. I know a couple Turks who, in describing their <ı> sound have said that it sounds a lot like the Estonian <õ> to their ears. In a way that confirms my own experiences of being taught the sound by an Estonian. When I actually produced a [ɤ] she didn't feel like it was high enough, though that may have been a result of it being in recitation form, though it certainly was [ɯ] initially (tonguetwister, õueaiamaa jõeääres 'apple orchard on the river shore'). The article should maybe be edited to say that Estonian is commonly said to have [ɤ], though this is not true in all positions and it's more of a convention?

What the article on Estonian says sounds quite reasonable to me: "Another feature that sets Estonian apart from most languages is the vowel õ ([ɤ]), a close-mid near-back unrounded vowel, which is farther back than the schwa ([ə]), but fronter than [o]." --Ryan 16:10, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Finno-Ugric Transcription for estonian õ is e with a curve below the letter, meaning a mid-vowel e. UPT [e] itself is closer to IPA [ɛ].Constanz - Talk 10:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Yorkshire English

Where does the claim that this vowel is used in Yorkshire English hope come from? That vowel is usually transcribed as rounded, I think (though as different rounded vowels depending on the variety).--JHJ 16:06, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Xipirho included that example so you could ask him. He doesn't seem like an expert on the subject so if he doesn't respond, I wouldn't be afraid to take the information out. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 01:19, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to remove it, based on this paper, which reveals a complex situation involving various monophthongs and diphthongs in Bradford English, and does not mention a back unrounded vowel anywhere as far as I can tell.--JHJ 12:05, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Bulgarian

In Bulgarian there is no such sound, път is pronounced with schwa. Arath 09:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

We probably should put a little diacritic on it indicating it's more front than the cardinal vowel. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 13:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I think the classification is accurate, but the sound sample in this article is bad (and that's what misleads Bulgarian users). In contrast, the Chinese sample sounds pretty much like the Bulgarian vowel, as do the samples for ɤ in this and this online IPA charts.--Anonymous44 (talk) 19:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the sound sample for ɤ does not correspond well to to the stressed Bulgarian ъ. A sound sample that completely corresponds to the stressed ъ, as in път, ръб, пън, сън, etc., is that given in ɞ (I do not know how close is this sample to the true sounding ɞ). On the other hand, unstressed ъ sounds almost exactly as the sound sample in ə. Bulgarians often mistake unstressed ъ with а, in fact, this is one of the most frequent spelling errors. --Lantonov (talk) 07:03, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

The corresponding Russian Wikipedia article also uses an example from Bulgarian. Is that also incorrect? 104.246.47.236 (talk) 03:13, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

The vowel is ɤ̞: somewhat more open, this is why there seems to be some confusion. It is a subtile difference. And anyway, Bulgarian is no longer listed in this article. --Kreuzkümmel (talk) 11:59, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

English example

Can we add an English example? Isn't it found in the word "but"? Badagnani (talk) 06:30, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Not in any dialects I know of. You sure you aren't thinking of the Open-mid back unrounded vowel? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 19:06, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that there is a consensus on transcribing 'but' as [ˈbʌt] (the [t] here is more controversial). --Lantonov (talk) 07:47, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

In my idiolect, this is precisely the pre-closed "ə" in "əʊ", aka my realization of "u" (sort of making "ɤɯ" in the end). My idiolect of Standard American is characterized by notable lack of rounding (caught-cot merger, "go" -> "gʌɯ").Squirrelous (talk) 17:34, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

The sound occurs in some dialects of AAVE. The sound clip for the vowel in this article sounds precisely like the AAVE equivalent of 'ew' or 'ugh' to my ears, but the AAVE vowel may be a bit less tense and/or less back. It occurs in the word 'good' too, although sometimes has an off-glide to something fronter and higher. --Pyry (talk) 20:59, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I know this is a tiny bit late to comment, but I also hear it in AAVE, often replacing an l, like /hɛl/-->/hɛɤ/. I'm going to be bold and add it, but feel free to revert it and discuss out here.Qwed117 (talk) 16:08, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

The sound [ɤ:] occurs in my own idiolect of English (northern England). It is the vowel in words such as "moor", "tour", "mourn". Most dialects of English do not have a separate phoneme in these words, so for instance "moor" and "more" are pronounced the same. 91.107.138.244 (talk) 01:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

This occurs in Singaporean English where photographer is pronounced as [fəto̞grafɤ] (listen to this on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ktn4dySpYI 0:16-0:20). I added it to the page itself. Gcjdavid (talk) 13:16, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Possible addition of a Tatar example

According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatar_alphabet#Cyrillic_version this is the sound represented by ы . Is it possible to find an example? 104.246.47.236 (talk) 03:09, 15 May 2016 (UTC)