Talk:Bacha bazi

Current treatment under the Taliban

Just to remind people, all of the discussion about it´s outlaw is from the time of 1996-2001, when the Taliban had control, but let´s not forget that the Taliban currently has control of all Afghanistan, surely it is currently illegal, and presumably carrying the death penalty as it did under the Taliban´s original reign? StrongALPHA (talk) 11:30, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 November 2023

You have to prove it’s common in the history of turkestan area. There is no source for it. 24.133.86.242 (talk) 20:54, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 21:18, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

No it`s VERY CLEAR what changes that you are asked for to make. The source in the article doesnt mention "historical turkestan" at all although it doesnt seem like a reliable source. Moreover there is no proper source mentioning that this practice has been observed in "HISTORICAL TURKESTAN" except some Quora posts. Also I couldnt see anything mentioning "historical turkestan" in any other sources listed. It must be difficult to not understand the objection here, maybe considering to drop wasting your time on wikipedia and get some help for better literacy skills? Fatmaakman (talk) 14:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

It`s pretty clear. There is no source for "historical turkestan" area defined by any reputable scientific magazine. The sources listed here do not mention any area "historical turkestan". Remove the QUORA BSs from Wikipedia. 2003:C2:DF32:7968:6C5F:5BA6:C35C:BC18 (talk) 18:19, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

"It is a custom in Afghanistan and in historical Turkestan and often involves sexual slavery and child prostitution by older men of young adolescent males."

There is no such statement in the article added as a source. Article only mentions afghanistan, "historical turkestan" is added by some m.rons like you. Remove it. I hope its clear enough this time.

HERE IS THE SOURCE: "Boys in Afghanistan Sold Into Prostitution, Sexual Slavery" Archived 2013-12-03 at the Wayback Machine, Digital Journal, Nov 20, 2007 2003:C2:DF32:7968:6C5F:5BA6:C35C:BC18 (talk) 18:31, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2023

Add the category "Rape of males". 5.61.122.219 (talk) 09:39, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

 Done, looks acceptable. Zenomonoz (talk) 21:20, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Origins

I have searched around for some reliable data on the origins of this practice. The data I have added regarding it being traced to the 9th or 10th Centuries was redrafted from https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/17dlk1f/how_old_and_common_is_the_afghan_tradition_of/

The scholar writing on that Reddit page added that Ingeborg Baldauf speculated that the practice might have originated either via Alexander's invasion of what is today Afghanistan (c. 320 BCE) and Hellenistic influence on the Mazar-i-Sharif area, or influence from the greater Chinese region.

The German monograph by Baldauf seemingly covers the question of origins at pages 77-96. Buckshot06 (talk) 20:37, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2024

"It is a custom in Afghanistan and often involves sexual slavery and child prostitution by older men of young adolescent males.[4]"

This is the 2nd sentence in the 1st paragraph in which the source doesnt include such statement as "historical turkestan", in fact it`s not observed in any central asian countries including tajikistan and uzbekistan which are only mentioned in the source. Moreover, the link/source is just an article written by a god-knows-whom, since when simple magazine articles are reliable sources for wikipedia? In several ACADEMIC sources, this area where this practice historically has been observed is referred as "central asia" which is understandable and accurate since there is not sufficient proofs that the "custom" has ever been observed in all "turkic states" and/or cultures except uzbekistan, and yet the other countries outside of afghanistan are tajikistan and pakistan, in fact none of these countries are turkic.

This INTENTIONAL EFFORT to spread MISINFORMATION through Wikipedia is extremely common, in particular, in the content related to turkic and turkish history. This will have consequences SOONER OR LATER and wikipedia will be sued due to this misuse unless the administration does not take any precautions. Fatmaakman (talk) 14:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. PianoDan (talk) 22:01, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

HERE IS THE SOURCE: "Boys in Afghanistan Sold Into Prostitution, Sexual Slavery" Archived 2013-12-03 at the Wayback Machine, Digital Journal, Nov 20, 2007 2003:C2:DF32:7968:6C5F:5BA6:C35C:BC18 (talk) 18:34, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2024

There is no mention of Turkestan in the provided source, hence it must be removed from the line "It is a custom in Afghanistan and in historical Turkestan...".

If this is not removed a decent source must instead be provided. Thank you. Orpheus under influence (talk) 15:35, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

 Partly done: Added a {{cn}} tag. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 02:56, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2024

I would like to edit this part of the article "According to German ethnographic research, the phenomenon is over a thousand years old. As far back as the 9th or 10th century, the mountainous regions that are now northern Afghanistan were known for this practice."[5] This is a more accurate description of the source The most comprehensive study of young male dancers in Afghanistan in the second half of the twentieth century perhaps belongs to German folklorist Ingeborg Baldauf, who studied bacabozlik (bachah-bāzi) among Uzbeks in the north. Baldauf's study, published in 1988 in German under the title Die Knabenliebe in Mittelasien: Bacabozlik (Boy Love in Central Asia: Bachah-bāzī), contended that a significant percentage of the Uzbek male population in Afghanistan's northern provinces were involved in bachah-bāzī at some point in their lives—either as a dancing-bachah or a bachah-lover (or perhaps both in the course of their lives). Bachahs were expected to be familiar with Chagatai literature, have a good grasp of music, know how to sing and dance, have good manners, and accompany their lovers in homosocial occasions. In return, their lovers, or bachah-bāz, had to generously spend money to outdo their rivals, otherwise the bachah would leave for a wealthier man. While the exchange of a few kisses and caresses was permissible between the bachah and bachah-bāz, no sexual intercourse was allowed, or the relationship would end abruptly. According to Baldauf, some men even ruined their families and went bankrupt after spending lavishly on bachahs for years.[28]

Similarly, Gunnar Jarring, a Swedish diplomat and ethnographer who studied the Turkish dialects of Andkhoy in the mid-1930s, heard from an Andkhoy resident about a “current custom” among Afghan Turkmens and Uzbeks in the northern provinces who would keep boys in a cellar for a few years to teach them to dance. “If young boys are to be found,” writes Jarring, “[the people of Afghan Turkistan] never let women dance[.Written in the 1860s by Sultan Mohammad Khales, Tārikh-e Soltāni (The History of Kings) covers the history of Afghan kings—their accessions to and removals from the throne—up to the death of Shah Shojāʿ (d. 1842). The book is written in literary prose and, until recently, was one of the main sources for historians of Afghanistan. Among the stories included in the book is an account of the ousting of Shah Mahmud (r. 1800–1803 & 1809–1818), the fourth ruler of the Durrani kingdom, in 1803. According to Khales, a Shiʿi Qizilbash man lured a good-looking Sunni Tajik amrad (beardless youth) into his house and asked some close friends to join for a bazm (celebratory event). A few Qizilbash men gathered and intoxicated the “helpless” (bichārah) amrad, forcefully committing “improper” (nāshāyestah) and “despicable” (shaniʿ) acts on him for days. Upon his release, the young male went to his father and shared the story, who in turn pleaded to the court for Shah Mahmud to punish the perpetrators. However, as the Qizilbash had played a significant role in helping the Durranis come to power, Shah Mahmud expressed a neutral position. Dissatisfied by the king's approach, the Sunnis went to the prominent cleric of the time, Mir Wāʿez, who issued a religious decree against the Qizilbash, which led to sectarian violence in Kabul. According to Khales, 3000–4000 people were killed from both sides each day. Shah Mahmud's opponents among tribal leaders seized this opportunity and thus unseated the king. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dreamergg00 (talk • contribs) 19:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

71).

The Pashto word equivelent used in rural Pashtun speaking areas for bacha bazi is halekon.A Los Angeles Times article stated many accuse the Taliban of hypocrisy on the issue of homosexuality. ‘The Taliban had Halekon, but they kept it secret,” says one anti – Taliban commander, who was rumored to keep two Halekon. He further added that “they hid their Halekon in their madrasas,’ or religious While in many areas of southern Afghanistan such treatment of boys appears to be

shrouded in some sense of secrecy, in Kandahar it constitutes an openly celebrated cultural tradition. Kandahar's long artistic and poetic tradition idolizes the pre-pubescent “beardless boy” as the icon of physical beauty. 19 th -century British authors report their observations of Pashtun fighters singing poetic “odes of their longing for young boys.” 15 The Los Angeles Times author cited earlier notes this tradition as alive and well in very recent literature: A popular poem by Syed Abdul Khaliq Agha, who died last year, notes Kandahar's special reputation. 'Kandahar has beautiful halekon,' the poem goes. They have black eyes and white cheeks. 16 Further, even the newly re-emerging musical nightlife of southern Afghan cities idolizes pre-pubescent boy performers, whose star status lasts only as long as their voices remain immature. While these performers themselves may be quite innocent, the reputation of their availability to patrons of the establishments at which they perform is difficult to dispel.schools.”

  Preceding unsigned comment added by Dreamergg00 (talk • contribs) 19:41, 28 August 2024 (UTC) 

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 22:26, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Halekon

Can you add this section. The Pashto word equivelent used in rural Pashtun speaking areas for bacha bazi is halekon.A Los Angeles Times article stated many accuse the Taliban of hypocrisy on the issue of homosexuality. ‘The Taliban had Halekon, but they kept it secret,” says one anti – Taliban commander, who was rumored to keep two Halekon. He further added that “they hid their Halekon in their madrasas,’ or religious While in many areas of southern Afghanistan such treatment of boys appears to be shrouded in some sense of secrecy, in Kandahar it constitutes an openly celebrated cultural tradition. Kandahar's long artistic and poetic tradition idolizes the pre-pubescent “beardless boy” as the icon of physical beauty. 19 th -century British authors report their observations of Pashtun fighters singing poetic “odes of their longing for young boys.” 15 The Los Angeles Times author cited earlier notes this tradition as alive and well in very recent literature: A popular poem by Syed Abdul Khaliq Agha, who died last year, notes Kandahar's special reputation. 'Kandahar has beautiful halekon,' the poem goes. They have black eyes and white cheeks. 16 Further, even the newly re-emerging musical nightlife of southern Afghan cities idolizes pre-pubescent boy performers, whose star status lasts only as long as their voices remain immature. While these performers themselves may be quite innocent, the reputation of their availability to patrons of the establishments at which they perform is difficult to dispel.schools.” Dreamergg00 (talk) 19:48, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2024

Change this: "It is a custom in Afghanistan and in historical Turkestan and often involves sexual slavery and child prostitution by older men of young adolescent males.[4]"

to

"It is a custom in Afghanistan and often involves sexual slavery and child prostitution by older men of young adolescent males.[4]"

The source doesnt mention a place called "historical turkestan". 2003:C2:DF32:7927:84CA:75DF:55EA:2D0D (talk) 11:49, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, I checked, and the source is indeed not very in-depth about the historical region it was practiced in. I think a better source on the historical extent of the practice may be needed here. I've restored the CN tag, but I'll leave the template as unanswered, so another editor with more experience in the topic area can take a closer look. --Licks-rocks (talk) 12:36, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 18:30, 9 September 2024 (UTC)