Talk:Bad Guy (Billie Eilish song)

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Genre classification for song

There have been multiple reverts for the genre in the infobox. Multiple editors have been involved (I am one of them). My reason for reverting was the "pop-trap" genre both nu-goth or pop-trap seem to be obscure genres with passing remarks in sources only about the release of this song. We don't even have articles for these genres yet ... I am not sure this meets the requirements stated here. I will wait for consensus. Dartslilly (talk) 12:51, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

Please let the genres in place until a consensus is reached, then we can remove them if needed. Cartoon network freak (talk) 14:37, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

@Cartoon network freak: Digging through the article history I first reverted after I noticed you edit warring over the infobox genres with this ip editor [1]. You reinsert it here [2] with edit summary "Big expansion and clean-up". We have two very short articles cited from the entertainment news with inconsistent claims of non-notable genres. The risk of damage from including poorly sourced content like this too soon is the only justification I have for this second revert, however, I will not edit war beyond this. I ask that you wait for a consensus before restoring. Dartslilly (talk) 14:43, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

@Ss112:@Aoba47:@MikeOwen: Maybe you can give some opinions on this? Cartoon network freak (talk) 18:43, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

I would like to know the previous involvement of the pinged editors in this discussion. All Cartoon network freak has said so far is that we should leave his preferred version in the article. All we have is two contradicting sources. This is not enough, especially for the infobox. This is policy. My opinion is based on [3] but I do not want to mis-state the policy because I do not know it very well so I am ping Robvanvee. I am still learning and will accept his answer. Dartslilly (talk) 18:51, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Overall, it is considered to be under alternative/indie, pop and seasonal genre. According to the Billie Eilish's interview, she wanted to give a message that people are not in a certain way all the time. They will never catch a bad bitch telling everyone she's a bad bitch, it is on them. In order to achieve this message, her music is distinct from "classic pop" and used mixture of sounds, layers to deliver distinct vibe (nme, 2019)

Lyrics: [Verse 1] White shirt now red, my bloody nose Sleepin', you're on your tippy toes Creepin' around like no one knows Think you're so criminal Bruises on both my knees for you Don't say thank you or please I do what I want when I'm wanting to My soul? So cynical

[Chorus] So you're a tough guy Like it really rough guy Just can't get enough guy Chest always so puffed guy I'm that bad type Make your mama sad type Make your girlfriend mad tight Might seduce your dad type I'm the bad guy Duh

[Post-Chorus] I'm the bad guy

[Verse 2] I like it when you take control Even if you know that you don't Own me, I'll let you play the role I'll be your animal My mommy likes to sing along with me But she won't sing this song If she reads all the lyrics She'll pity the men I know — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scarletpark424 (talk • contribs) 09:26, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

In the interests of moving on with my life I have setup redirects for the genres and restored them to the infobox so there is no more dispute between us. I wanted to wait to create the genre articles but I guess we can do that after the genres become established? Dartslilly (talk) 19:39, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

I undid this. There's no dispute :) I'm just curious to see for the other users' comments — I can wait a few more days... Cartoon network freak (talk) 19:56, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

You are edit warring. I undid your edit warring. Please stop linking pop-trap to pop and trap. It is neither. I couldn't find MUSICRS to add more what it is and you have shown none but Trap (EDM) is a better link than a 1990's genre. Did you read the articles before linking them? Dartslilly (talk) 19:58, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

This is me not reacting to you yelling at me. Cartoon network freak (talk) 20:49, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

This song should not be linked to gothic rock by the "nu-goth" tag, since this song is not in any form related to gothic rock, or as far as I can tell by its sound and influences, not having anything to do with gothic rock or its related genres. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.132.100.123 (talk) 10:16, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Please stick to the given reliable sources. And it's not "nu-goth", its "nu-goth pop". Cartoon network freak (talk) 13:50, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bad Guy (Billie Eilish song)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Thatoneweirdwikier (talk · contribs) 17:20, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

NOTE: This review is being co-reviewed by Ceranthor, who is a GA Mentor.

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   Minor detail to note, see below.

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

   Again, a minor detail, see below.

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   Layout is clear.

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   Any controversial sentences are backed up by citations.

   C. It contains no original research:

   No original research, all cited sources.

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

   Nothing blatantly copied outside of quotes.

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   Covers everything about the topic it needs to.

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

   Always stays on topic and doesn’t get distracted.

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

   No biased opinions created by the article.

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

   Edits are made, but never too frequently to start an edit war.

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   Images are plentiful and relevant to the topic.

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   All images are covered for copyright.

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

Overall, this is certainly an interesting article. However, I came across this wording in the lead: “Darkroom and Interscope Records released it as...” This may not be clear with those who are unsure about labels in music. This would also collide with MOS:INTRO, as it advises to avoid “hard-to-understand terminology.”

Please let me know if anything needs to be added or removed. Thatoneweirdwikier (talk) 17:20, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

I will be adding some comments below. ceranthor 00:45, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Prose Comments from Ceranthor

• "Darkroom and Interscope Records released it as the fifth single from her debut studio album When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? on March 29, 2019." - Eilish's, not her.

 Done

• The lead is quite long for an article of this small size. I think you should cut out the following sentences: "several of whom praised its lyrics."; "It was also likened to music recorded by the White Stripes, Lorde and Fiona Apple."; "Eilish promoted the song by performing it live at venues including Coachella Valley Music and Arts Festival, Glastonbury Festival and during her 2019 When We All Fall Asleep Tour."

 Done

• "During the song's lyrics, Eilish taunts her lover for being a bad guy although suggesting that she is more resilient than he is. The song is also about misandry and sarcasm." - these sentences should be combined into one, and I'm not sure using the word "bad guy" is very encyclopedic - you can also certainly be more concise.

 Done although I failed to find a good wording to replace "bad guy". Maybe you can help?

I have an idea - what about linking to the wiktionary entry for bad boy here? Just like a standard wikilink, you should only do this at the first mention in the lead and then the first time it's mentioned in the body text of the article. ceranthor 02:35, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

• "Eilish and her brother Finneas O'Connell co-wrote "Bad Guy", with the latter producing it and the former providing additional production." - likewise, this sentence could be written with probably half the words.

I certainly do not know how to shorten this. Again, can you help me out?

• In background and release, these two sentences again could be combined easily without diluting the meaning. "The song was co-written by Eilish and her brother Finneas O'Connell. The latter also produced the track, alongside additional production by Eilish."

 Done

• "In August 2019, the single was made available for pre-order on cassette, scheduled to ship in October; selected cassettes were signed by Eilish." Missing an "and" between cassette and scheduled. What's there doesn't make sense grammatically I don't think.

 Done Is it better now?

• Not sure about the use of quotation marks to describe the sound here. ""Bad Guy" further uses a "goofy carnival" and "cartoony" synthesizer riff.[10][12]" - Could you rephrase in your own words? That would be superior IMO.

 Done I used "puerile", which is "childishly silly and immature". I think this described "goofy carnival" and "cartoony" best? What do you say?

• "Alongside "witty" cadences, Eilish uses several tongue-in-cheek lyrics.[13][14]" - Same note as directly above. Witty can be rephrased in your own words; it's not like witty is that rare of a way to describe lyrics.

 Done Replaced it with "humorous"

• "In the lyrics, Eilish taunts a lover for being a bad guy; as the song progresses she suggests she is tougher than him" - Seems pretty informal. There must be a better way to describe him as a "bad guy" that's more encyclopedic. And tougher than him in what way?

As in the lead, please help me out. By tougher, it is meant that she is more commited to being a "bad guy".

• "Upon its release, "Bad Guy" was praised by music critics, several of whom commended its lyrical content.[10][13][14]" - Just say "lyrics." Lyrical content sounds stuffy and verbose to me.

 Done

• "Labeling it as a "low-key banger", Stereogum's Chris DeVille drew comparisons with the work of Lorde and Fiona Apple.[16] " I'd rephrase this. Labeling "Bad Guy" as a ..., Stereogum's... drew comparisons between the song and the work of..." would be more clear, both in terms of pronouns and comprehensibility.

 Done

• "It went on to occupy number two for a total of nine weeks," - I hate the construction "went on". Why not just say it later occupied number two? Same thing; less words.

 Done

• "Eilish ended the record-breaking 19-week run of "Old Town Road" by Lil Nas X featuring Billy Ray Cyrus." - Maybe it's semantics, but I think it would be "Bad Guy" not Eilish who would be ending the run, especially since you say the run of "Old Town Road" not of Lil Nas X in the second half of the sentence.

 Done

• "A music video for "Bad Guy"" - Unsure, but is "A music video" the standard way to say it, or would it be "The music video" since it was made by Eilish?

"A music video" is too abrupt to start a section, in my opinion. I think this is fine, but I can change it if you insist.

• "while the opening track "!!!!!!!" from When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? is played." - change "is played" to "plays."

 Done

• "and hands her dental brace to a man, Eric Lutz,[38] on her right." - I think including his name is a crufty detail unless he's famous or something. Feel free to push back if he is and I'm just out of the loop

 Done Users in the past insisted on including his name, and since he is somehow known as a model and cameo actor, I think it's best to leave him in there.

• "Scenes showing Eilish dancing wildly are interspersed with her "boredly" feeding pigeons," - Remove the quote; I don't think it adds anything.

 Done

• "The video ends in a "sinister" way as Eilish sits on the back of a man who does push-ups in a dark, red room" - same as above.

 Done

• "James Rettig of Stereogum noticed elements of camp although acknowledging the video was "still being emotionally sincere and vulnerable." - "although" doesn't work grammatically here, but maybe replacing that with "although he acknowledged the video..." would work fine.

 Done

• "To promote the song, Eilish delivered several live performances of "Bad Guy"." - delivered isn't used for performances. This needs to be rewritten as something like "Eilish has promoted "Bad Guy" through a number of live performances."

 Done

• " On May 7, 2019, she sang it on Jimmy Kimmel Live!,[47] and BBC Radio 1's Big Weekend on May 26.[48] " - This sentence isn't grammatically correct and the second half needs to be rewritten.

 Done

• ""Bad Guy" was included on the setlist of Eilish's When We All Fall Asleep Tour (2019),[51] and further performed at Pukkelpop in August.[52]" - "further performed at" doesn't read nicely; what about cutting out the Pukkelpop sentence from this sentence and making it into its own new sentence like "It was also performed at the Pukkelpop festival in August of the same year." or something along those lines.

 Done

• "For their reinterpretation, Bastille added "surfy" guitars and "soulful" backup singers, and changed the song's lyrical plot by modifying the original line "I'm the bad guy" to "You're the bad guy".[54] " - again, too many quotations.

 Done

• "Two Door Cinema Club also covered the track on Radio 1's Live Lounge the same month,[55] as well as Alexandra Stan on Virgin Radio Romania in July.[56]" - Rephrase and make more concise. The track was covered by Two Door Cinema Club on ... the same month and by Alexandra Stan on ... in July."

 Done

• "was used during the end credits of the 2019 superhero horror film Brightburn.[59] The song will be featured on the upcoming dance rhythm game, Just Dance 2020.[60] Among other parodies, one titled "Dad Guy" released by FunkTurkey on YouTube in August 2019, went viral. It replaces the original lyrics with jokes about fatherhood.[61]" - I think you should just cut all of this. It's kind of crufty and it's probably very difficult to cover all of the various parodies/instances where it was used for soundtracks; better to leave that to the individual pages for any soundtracks/videos that are notable in their own right.

This is important for the article and this section in particular. Note that I only included highly notable uses of this song in media. Just Dance is highly notable, as well as is the film. Note how I covered the fact that it was used for multiple parodies by saying "Among other parodies", and how I only mentioned one of the most notable ones. I think I did a good job summing it all up, and it should stay IMO.

Reference and copyvio comments from Ceranthor

• ""Bad Guy" is divided into halves; the first half is moderately fast at 132–138 beats per minute (BPM) and the second half is slow at 60 BPM." - There should probably be a citation directly after this claim.

 Done

• There's a lot of detail in the music video section; perhaps a bit too much. Is all of that contained within the references? If not it could run the risk of being considered original research I fear.

Six lines of text isn't that much of information for a plot, and yes, everything included is backed up by the sources given.

• What makes Musicnotes.com a reliable source per WP:RS?

It is a licensed notes provider, and has partnerships with labels such as Universal, EMI etc ([4]).

• For ref 73, is this an artifact from when you were working on the article? " "ČNS IFPI" (in Czech). Hitparáda – Radio Top 100 Oficiální. IFPI Czech Republic. Note: Change the chart to CZ – RADIO – TOP 100 and insert 201930,31 into search. Retrieved July 29, 2019."

This is a note for users to know how to go to the page that shows the song's chart positions. This is common for refs like that for charts.

• same thing with refs 74, 94, 95, 118, 124, 125, and 131?

See above

• Earwig's tool checks out. I did not do any spot checks myself.

Some take aways: there is some over-reliance on quotations in sections where quotations are not really indicated. The prose could use some polishing. ceranthor 00:45, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ceranthor: Hey there and thank you very much for taking time to review the article. I have worked on your comments. Best regards; Cartoon network freak (talk) 10:49, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

@Cartoon network freak: Nice work. I responded to one but I'm happy with your defenses/fixes otherwise. Give me a buzz once you make a decision for the issue I responded to, and then Thatoneweirdwikier and I can discuss. ceranthor 02:44, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ceranthor:  Done. Cartoon network freak (talk) 19:17, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

One final note

Hi, just before we pass this article, I wanted to point out a slight factual error. In the ‘List of awards and nominations’ section, the MTV Europe Music Award for ‘Best Song’ is currently nowhere to be seen, despite the fact that she won. I don’t know if anyone else was aware of this already, but currently, it’s not been fixed. Many thanks for your time, Thatoneweirdwikier Say hi 06:10, 4 November 2019 (UTC) Apologies. I didn’t realise that this wasn’t only awards for the music video. We are ready to pass the article. Well done, Cartoon network freak! Thatoneweirdwikier Say hi 15:47, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

Rolling Stone #1

How is it possible for "Bad Guy" to have been number one on the Rolling Stone 100 if you review every single week for the chart since its inception in July 2019, it never reached the top position. On the very first chart, it was at 7, then it moved up to 6. From there, it fell to 9, jumped up to 3, dropped to 5, then 7, remained at 7, returned to 6, fell back to 9, bounced back up to 7, before falling out of the top 15 for good. I don't think the "peak position" info when the "+" sign on the RS site is clicked next to the song is an accurate indicator, especially if they are incorporating beta charts. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 23:50, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

The peak used is a daily peak and not the final, as the chart is updated everyday [[5]] this is the guideline you need to use here. BTW the song is nowhere to be seen on the List of Rolling Stone Top 100 number-one songs of 2019. Thanks for pointing this out. MarioSoulTruthFan (talk) 13:14, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Flexi Disc Cover

Is Billie sitting on the mans back and the text Billie thanking her fans the cover of the Flexi Disc? Beatleswillneverdie (talk) 67:15, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

Get rid of "misandry" from the lead

It's really weird that the word "misandry" is in the lead paragraph, even though if you google "Bad Guy Billie Eilish misandry" you get almost nothing, with some results on the first page simply containing excerpts from this article, or earlier versions of it. To me this seems like Wikipedia speaking a very obscure opinion or perspective and pushing it up more than its actual significance. PBZE (talk) 01:43, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Fully agree, took it out. --GiantInsects (talk) 19:28, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Are more photos allowed to be added here?

Can I more photos of Billie here? SAYITWITHYOURCHEST (talk) 19:24, 28 March 2024 (UTC)