Talk:Central Bank of Manchou

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Bank of Manchukuo → Central Bank of Manchukuo — The bank's only official name are kanji 滿洲中央銀行; without explicit English translation. Central Bank of Manchukuo carried the highest number GHits for possible translations:

• Central Bank of Manchukuo: 776 [1]
• Central Bank of Manchou (somehow official, used in some banknotes): 33 [2]
• Bank of Manchukuo: 25 [ "Bank of Manchukuo" -wikipedia -"Central bank of manchukuo" -"industrial bank of manchukuo"]
• Central Bank of Manchuria: 3 [3] —Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 09:04, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Discussion

• Question: Wouldn't adding "central" in the name be redundant if one uses "manchukuo"? --Polaron | Talk 21:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Most people don't know what kuo or koku meant; they thought Manchukuo as the name of a place. The kanji name is just Central Bank of Manchuria.--Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 01:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Why would it be redundant? Kuo means "country," not "central." A more exact translation of the name would be "Central Bank of Manchuria" since, as is pointed out, the kuo is not present in the bank's name. Arlright 02:08, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

When I did the Google test above, I got about the same number of hits (716) for "Central Bank of Manchuria" -Wikipedia as for "Central Bank of Manchukuo". However, I think there's a large number of talk pages wholly dedicated to determining how to represent historical distinctions between the region and the Japanese puppet state on Wikipedia, and those tend to support using Manchukuo in this sort of situation. Dekimasuよ! 01:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

There's a slight tip towards Central Bank of Manchukuo-- but I wonder if Central Bank of Manchou is more suitable for the self-identification criteria; their early banknotes, Pick number J-120 to J-122, were overprints from earlier banknotes from other banks and they overprinted Central Bank of Manchou over the other bank's name. I can check where the offical proclamation was.--Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 15:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

In the absence of a clear preference for the target, and espcially given that search terms with "Manchuria" return significantly more results than those with "Manchukuo", I don't think this request can be acted upon yet. It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. --Stemonitis 10:01, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The name still has to be discussed

The Requested Move did not go through-- not because on if it should be moved, but where it should be moved to. It's surely Central Bank of something, but what "something"? Manchukuo? Manchou? Manchuria? It still needs to be discussed. --Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 13:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

As for why I said above that Central Bank of Manchou is somehow official, see [4] . It's a notice by the Manshū Chuō Ginkō on the Manchukuo Government Register Volume 24 (published on 13 July Tatung 1 [1932]), on the provisional Manchukuo yuan banknotes they are going to issue. They just overprinted Bank of the Three Eastern Provinces banknotes with the name of the new bank, and on the reverse, which was English, they overprinted the name with Central Bank of Manchou. --Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 15:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's The Manchuria Central Bank. At least the coin and banknotes museum says so. [5] Oda Mari 15:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

And a Chinese site says so too.[6]Oda Mari 16:52, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I saw the 公告 you posted. Oh, I think it's the most reliable source. 公告 is a Governmental announcement to the citizens. I think The Central Bank of Manchou must be the formal name you've been looking for.　Oda Mari 07:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

But Manshū Chuō Ginkō is not part of the government? The Manshū Chuō Ginkō Act did prescribe the government can only own at most half of its shares. --Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 07:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Manshu Chuo Ginko was a national bank then, wasn't it? Oda Mari 08:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC) PS. And the word 大日本帝國内閣印刷局黎造 was printed on banknotes of Manshu. Oda Mari 08:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Not necessarily; the notes in question were overprinted from bills of other banks. Those bills were originally printed by the American Bank Note Company and hence has English; subsequent Manchukuo yuan bills were either printed in Japan or Manchukuo and bore no English. --Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 11:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I see what banknotes you are talking about. The ones the bank was collecting for organizing the currency of the country. Well then, Manchuria Central Bank? I'm sorry but I have no idea. (sigh) Oda Mari 16:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think banks, especially national banks, don't change their names easily. So I think The Central Bank of Manchou is the English name after all, unless there　is an official announcement/公告 on the change of name with later date.Oda Mari 05:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)Oda Mari 05:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested move (second nomination)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Bank of Manchukuo → Central Bank of Manchou — There is a consensus in the first request that the article should be moved, but the request did not get through due to dispute on which name it should go to. After evidence that the bank self-identifies as Central Bank of Manchou, I believe such a name would most suit WP policy. —Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 18:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support as nom. --Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 18:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak Support The following Google Scholar citations support this, more than any other name I can think of. The articles in question seem to be largely written by two contemporaries, J. R. Stewart and Kurt Bloch; I would be glad to see evidence that this is more than two men's usage. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
• Support The public notice is a solid source.Oda Mari 20:49, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
• Weak support. I recognize the value of a move and this seems to be what's suggested by the attempts at standardization by the numismatics WikiProject, although I don't think any numismatics-related naming conventions really have consensus. Dekimasuよ! 01:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: Here I just based on WP:NAME.--Samuel di Curtisi di Salvadori 03:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

To PManderson: Some more credible sources from a simple Google search: Kiyoyuki Tokunaga, Kyoto U (1940)(1942)

Vesting order 18498, Office of the Alien Property Custodian (thru National Archives)

A Yale Law School listing of a Manchukuo government-published book on the Bank

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Bank of Manchukuo to Central Bank of Manchou as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 16:04, 15 July 2007 (UTC)